[Avodah] Tzeni'us and gender roles

[T613K at aol.com]

In a message dated 7/22/2009, celejar at gmail.com writes:




> RYG wrote:
>
> "she'ain ha'nashim be'toras  edus, she'ha'edus zarich kivun  ve'yishuv
> ha'da'as harbeh"  (Hinuch #37). 
I then wrote:


>  
>
> That is only the Chinuch's opinion --  his personal understanding of the  
> reason for the halacha that  women can't be witnesses in court.  His  
> understanding fits  with the common beliefs (or prejudices) of his time 
and place  --  
> 13th century Spain -- but I don't know if the Gemara's own words  suggest 
 
> any reason. [--old TK]
 
RYG responded:



>>I wonder why RnTK seems to consider it legitimate  to
casually dismiss statements of Rishonim on no other grounds than  that
they are incompatible with modern, progressive sensibilities.   This
is exactly what the liberal denominations of Judaism often argue,  that
they concede the authority of Halachah and the Talmud while  asserting
the right to reject various opinions of "the Rabbis" as "common  beliefs
(or prejudices) of [their] time[s] and place[s]" ...

While I  of course mean to cast no aspersions on RnTK's Orthodoxy, she
is basically  lending legitimacy here to Open Orthodoxy and its
innovation of the  Maharat....  <<
 


Yitzhak
--
Bein Din Le'din - http://bdld.info - 
 
>>>>>
We need to examine this sentence a bit more  closely:
 
>>[The] liberal denominations of Judaism...assert
the right  to reject various opinions of "the Rabbis" <<
 
The modernizers assert the right to reject the *halachic* opinions of  
authorities they don't care for.  They assert the right to choose, say,  Shamai 
over Hillel, or to reject them both, if they don't care for a certain  
halacha.
 
If I had dismissed the *halacha* (women can't be witnesses in court) on the 
 grounds that the *halacha* was "incompatible with modern, progressive  
sensibilities," you might have a point.  That would be a non-Orthodox thing  to 
do.  However I did NOT say, "The Chinuch only rejects women as witnesses  
because he lived in 13th century Spain."
 
What the Chinuch did here was to speculate as to the *reason* for the  
halacha.  IIANM, the Gemara itself does not give a reason.  The  /reason/ given 
by the Chinuch is only his opinion.  The halacha stands  whether or not we 
understand the reason behind it.  I accept the halacha  but I do not accept 
the reason he gives. I believe that his understanding  of women's 
capabilities was colored by his time and place.   If there  is any source earlier than 
the Chinuch, any source which he himself could have  pointed to, to say that 
women can't be witnesses because their testimony can't  be trusted -- 
because they lack the intellectual ability to testify accurately  -- I would be 
interested to hear about it.
 
 
 
--Toby  Katz
==========



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