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<DIV>In a message dated 7/22/2009, celejar@gmail.com writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><FONT
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2><BR><BR><BR>> RYG wrote:<BR>><BR>> "she'ain ha'nashim be'toras
edus, she'ha'edus zarich kivun ve'yishuv<BR>> ha'da'as harbeh"
(Hinuch #37). </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>I then wrote:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><FONT
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2><BR>> <BR>><BR>> That is only the Chinuch's opinion --
his personal understanding of the <BR>> reason for the halacha that
women can't be witnesses in court. His <BR>> understanding fits
with the common beliefs (or prejudices) of his time and place --
<BR>> 13th century Spain -- but I don't know if the Gemara's own words
suggest <BR>> any reason. [--old TK]</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>RYG responded:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><FONT
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2><BR><BR>>>I wonder why RnTK seems to consider it legitimate
to<BR>casually dismiss statements of Rishonim on no other grounds than
that<BR>they are incompatible with modern, progressive sensibilities.
This<BR>is exactly what the liberal denominations of Judaism often argue,
that<BR>they concede the authority of Halachah and the Talmud while
asserting<BR>the right to reject various opinions of "the Rabbis" as "common
beliefs<BR>(or prejudices) of [their] time[s] and place[s]" ...<BR><BR>While I
of course mean to cast no aspersions on RnTK's Orthodoxy, she<BR>is basically
lending legitimacy here to Open Orthodoxy and its<BR>innovation of the
Maharat.... <<</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
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<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><FONT
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000
size=2><BR>Yitzhak<BR>--<BR>Bein Din Le'din - http://bdld.info -
</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>>>>>><BR>We need to examine this sentence a bit more
closely:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>>>[The] liberal denominations of Judaism...assert<BR>the right
to reject various opinions of "the Rabbis" <<</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The modernizers assert the right to reject the *halachic* opinions of
authorities they don't care for. They assert the right to choose, say,
Shamai over Hillel, or to reject them both, if they don't care for a certain
halacha.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>If I had dismissed the *halacha* (women can't be witnesses in court) on the
grounds that the *halacha* was "incompatible with modern, progressive
sensibilities," you might have a point. That would be a non-Orthodox thing
to do. However I did NOT say, "The Chinuch only rejects women as witnesses
because he lived in 13th century Spain."</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>What the Chinuch did here was to speculate as to the *reason* for the
halacha. IIANM, the Gemara itself does not give a reason. The
/reason/ given by the Chinuch is only his opinion. The halacha stands
whether or not we understand the reason behind it. I accept the halacha
but I do not accept the reason he gives. I believe that his understanding
of women's capabilities was colored by his time and place. If there
is any source earlier than the Chinuch, any source which he himself could have
pointed to, to say that women can't be witnesses because their testimony can't
be trusted -- because they lack the intellectual ability to testify accurately
-- I would be interested to hear about it.</DIV>
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<DIV><FONT lang=0 face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"
PTSIZE="10"><B>--Toby
Katz<BR>==========<BR><BR><BR><BR>_____________________</B></FONT></DIV></FONT><DIV CLASS="aol_ad_footer" ID="5eaaf4f38d8e127c02dc30890bb637"><br/><font style="color:black;font:normal 10pt arial,san-serif;"> <hr style="margin-top:10px"/><B>An Excellent Credit Score is 750. <A HREF=http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222377105x1201454426/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=62&bcd=JulyExcfooterNO62>See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps!</A></B></font></DIV></BODY></HTML>