[Mesorah] Another kleinigkeit

Fri Jul 3 07:37:43 PDT 2020

Strange.  I should have changed my mind in 9 years 😉
I do not believe that I have ever achieved a complete definitive answer.  I was taught that one tries one's best, and then flags the matter to be reviewed in a few years. That is the way RYBS approached everything.  And when questioned about something again, if he was answering someone interested in learning, he would always review it.  And every day when he did something, his default was to do the way he had been taught, but he kept reviewing it to see whether that is indeed the right way. It was why it was informative to watch him while davening, not to see what he did as much as when he paused before doing something to think about it.
I know because it once happened that I had a question about my tzitzis, and Rabbi Simon, zt'l, instead of answering said "let's ask the Rov." So we did, and the Rov immediately launched into a whole discussion of the background of the issue, clearly something he had just been reviewing.
And that was what R. Simon wanted to show me. That the Rov did not just always repeat what he did yesterday, but thought about it.  When we went back to our seats, R. Simon grinned at me and said, "now you have your answer."  What I had was not a yes or no answer, but an analysis of the sources and then what one should do.
The reason I mention this here is that if I give answers without proof, it should be also be considered just a s'voro. A s'voro remains an ad hoc guess unless one finds a basis in the Masorah or brings proof that the same idea/system exists elsewhere.  One should never believe anything a rabbi says until one sees his source or his proof.  And one does not have to believe anything a rabbi from 100 or 200 or 300 years ago says unless he brings proof.

Rabbi Dr. Seth Mandel
Rabbinic Coordinator
The Orthodox Union

Voice and Fax (212) 613-8330        e-mail mandels at ou.org

________________________________
From: Sholom Simon <sholom at aishdas.org>
Sent: Friday, July 3, 2020 10:13 AM
To: Mandel, Seth <mandels at ou.org>
Cc: Aharon Gal <galsaba at aol.com>; M. Hamm <msh210 at gmail.com>; Mesorah List <mesorah at aishdas.org>
Subject: Re: [Mesorah] Another kleinigkeit

I recall (which means any inaccuracies are mine) my mesorah teacher (RSM) telling me that there are seven instances in this "ogera" - a collection of ad hoc exceptions to the regular dagesh rules.  Four of them appear in Az Yashir.  Mi kamocha should be missing a dagesh; two instances of "go’ah g’ah," the second gimmel should not have a dagesh; at 15:15 ( “k’aven” instead of “ch’aven").  There's one in Yeshayahu  54:12.  “v’samti kad’chod.”   (And a few more).

The mesorah on the above is clear: no dagesh.  There is also a tradition of machlokes in a few other places where we're not sure if the dagesh appears or not.  One example I'm aware, which is yet another one from Az Yashir, is 15:13 "Am zu go’olata"

FWIW.  (R Seth, the above are from some notes I took while listening to you in 2011!)

-- Sholom

On Fri, Jul 3, 2020 at 9:25 AM Mandel, Seth via Mesorah <mesorah at lists.aishdas.org<mailto:mesorah at lists.aishdas.org>> wrote:
The form in mi kamokha: Minchat Shay gives an ad hoc guess. It is clear that that is what it is, because the form is included by all the Ba’alei haMasorah in “ogerah,” meaning a group for which in the Masorah there is no explanation.

---
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On July 3, 2020 at 5:31:15 AM EDT, Aharon Gal <galsaba at aol.com<mailto:galsaba at aol.com>> wrote:
Not a proof, but a סברה based on סבירות:

According to the book  "צורות הקשר וצורות הפסק בעברית שבמקרא” (Dr. Israel Ben David) in the תבנית of "פתח/קמץ במלרע"   when the trop is Zakef Katon (Melech) 25% of the cases will come with Tzurat Hefsek . For Ravia it is 9%. Tzinor 8%, Dechi 2.4%. The trop on the last three is a Mishne.

In the following Pesukim where the verb is in Zakef Katon (MELECH - the last two) the verb (binyan paal) come with Tzurat Hemshech (Kamatz Patach)
וּמַלְאַ֣ךְ ה' הָלַ֖ךְ מֵעֵינָֽיו
ה' נָתַ֔ן וַיהוָ֖ה לָקָ֑ח
ה' אָמַ֔ר לִשְׁכֹּ֖ן בָּעֲרָפֶֽל

While in the verses in Tehillim where the verbs have trop MISHNE they are with Tzurat Hefsek:
 אִמְר֤וּ בַגּוֹיִ֨ם | יְה֘וָ֤ה מָלָ֗ךְ (Tehillim 96:10)
יְהוָ֣ה מָ֭לָךְ תָּגֵ֣ל הָאָ֑רֶץ (Tehillim 97:1)
יְהוָ֣ה מָלָךְ֮ גֵּא֪וּת לָ֫בֵ֥שׁ (Tehillim 93:1)

Aharon

On Jul 2, 2020, at 11:28 PM, M. Hamm <msh210 at gmail.com<mailto:msh210 at gmail.com>> wrote:

R' Seth Mandel: <<Conceptually, it might be appropriate to have different forms of verbs and adjectives used for God.  Next time you invent a language, you can feel free to try.  But in dealing with facts, no human language that know of does that.>>

Perhaps not, but Tanach has unusual constructions in His honor.  Minchas Shay IIRC gives His honor as a reason for the dagesh in "mi kamocha" in Az yashir; and I seem to recall reading somewhere that appearing between two copies of His name is why "mik'dash", also in Az yashir, has a dagesh "l'sif'eres".  So maybe malach instead of mal'ach, too?

M.

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