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Strange. I should have changed my mind in 9 years <span id="😉">😉</span><br>
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I do not believe that I have ever achieved a complete definitive answer. I was taught that one tries one's best, and then flags the matter to be reviewed in a few years. That is the way RYBS approached everything. And when questioned about something again,
if he was answering someone interested in learning, he would always review it. And every day when he did something, his default was to do the way he had been taught, but he kept reviewing it to see whether that is indeed the right way. It was why it was informative
to watch him while davening, not to see what he did as much as when he paused before doing something to think about it.</div>
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I know because it once happened that I had a question about my tzitzis, and Rabbi Simon, zt'l, instead of answering said "let's ask the Rov." So we did, and the Rov immediately launched into a whole discussion of the background of the issue, clearly something
he had just been reviewing.</div>
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And that was what R. Simon wanted to show me. That the Rov did not just always repeat what he did yesterday, but thought about it. When we went back to our seats, R. Simon grinned at me and said, "now you have your answer." What I had was not a yes or no
answer, but an analysis of the sources and then what one should do.</div>
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The reason I mention this here is that if I give answers without proof, it should be also be considered just a s'voro. A s'voro remains an ad hoc guess unless one finds a basis in the Masorah or brings proof that the same idea/system exists elsewhere. One
should never believe anything a rabbi says until one sees his source or his proof. And one does not have to believe anything a rabbi from 100 or 200 or 300 years ago says unless he brings proof.<br>
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<div class="PlainText"><font size="3" face="Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt">Rabbi Dr. Seth Mandel</span><br>
<span style="font-size:12pt">Rabbinic Coordinator</span><br>
<span style="font-size:12pt">The Orthodox Union</span><br>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Sholom Simon <sholom@aishdas.org><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, July 3, 2020 10:13 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Mandel, Seth <mandels@ou.org><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Aharon Gal <galsaba@aol.com>; M. Hamm <msh210@gmail.com>; Mesorah List <mesorah@aishdas.org><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Mesorah] Another kleinigkeit</font>
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<div>I recall (which means any inaccuracies are mine) my mesorah teacher (RSM) telling me that there are seven instances in this "ogera" - a collection of ad hoc exceptions to the regular dagesh rules. Four of them appear in Az Yashir. Mi kamocha should be
missing a dagesh; <span style="font-size:10pt; line-height:115%; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">
two instances of "go’ah g’ah," the second gimmel should not have a dagesh; at 15:15 (
<span style="font-size:10pt; line-height:115%; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">
“k’aven” instead of “ch’aven"). There's one in Yeshayahu <span style="font-size:10pt; line-height:115%; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">
54:12.<span> </span>“v’samti kad’chod.” (And a few more).</span></span></span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:10pt; line-height:115%; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"><span style="font-size:10pt; line-height:115%; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"><span style="font-size:10pt; line-height:115%; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"><br>
</span></span></span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:10pt; line-height:115%; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"><span style="font-size:10pt; line-height:115%; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"><span style="font-size:10pt; line-height:115%; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">The
mesorah on the above is clear: no dagesh. There is also a tradition of machlokes in a few other places where we're not sure if the dagesh appears or not. One example I'm aware, which is yet another one from Az Yashir, is 15:13 "<span style="font-size:10pt; line-height:115%; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">Am
zu go’olata"</span></span></span></span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:10pt; line-height:115%; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"><span style="font-size:10pt; line-height:115%; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"><span style="font-size:10pt; line-height:115%; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"><span style="font-size:10pt; line-height:115%; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"><br>
</span></span></span></span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:10pt; line-height:115%; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"><span style="font-size:10pt; line-height:115%; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"><span style="font-size:10pt; line-height:115%; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"><span style="font-size:10pt; line-height:115%; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">FWIW.
(R Seth, the above are from some notes I took while listening to you in 2011!)</span></span></span></span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:10pt; line-height:115%; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"><span style="font-size:10pt; line-height:115%; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"><span style="font-size:10pt; line-height:115%; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"><span style="font-size:10pt; line-height:115%; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"><br>
</span></span></span></span></div>
<div><span style="font-size:10pt; line-height:115%; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"><span style="font-size:10pt; line-height:115%; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"><span style="font-size:10pt; line-height:115%; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black"><span style="font-size:10pt; line-height:115%; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:black">--
Sholom</span></span></span></span></div>
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<div dir="ltr" class="x_gmail_attr">On Fri, Jul 3, 2020 at 9:25 AM Mandel, Seth via Mesorah <<a href="mailto:mesorah@lists.aishdas.org">mesorah@lists.aishdas.org</a>> wrote:<br>
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<div dir="ltr">The form in mi kamokha: Minchat Shay gives an ad hoc guess. It is clear that that is what it is, because the form is included by all the Ba’alei haMasorah in “ogerah,” meaning a group for which in the Masorah there is no explanation.
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<div dir="auto">On July 3, 2020 at 5:31:15 AM EDT, Aharon Gal <<a href="mailto:galsaba@aol.com" target="_blank">galsaba@aol.com</a>> wrote:<br>
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<div style=""><font face="Lucida Grande"><span style="font-size:15px">Not a proof, but a סברה based on סבירות:</span></font>
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<div><font face="Lucida Grande"><span style="font-size:15px">According to the book "צורות הקשר וצורות הפסק בעברית שבמקרא” (Dr. Israel Ben David) in the תבנית of "פתח/קמץ במלרע" when the trop is Zakef Katon (Melech) 25% of the cases will come with Tzurat
Hefsek . For Ravia it is 9%. Tzinor 8%, Dechi 2.4%. The trop on the last three is a Mishne.</span></font>
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<div><font style="font-size:15px" face="Lucida Grande">In the following Pesukim where the verb is in Zakef Katon (MELECH - the last two) the verb (binyan paal) come with Tzurat Hemshech (Kamatz Patach)</font></div>
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<div><span style="font-size:15px"><font face="Lucida Grande"><span id="x_gmail-m_4143761424350053394M_6_21_21" style="box-sizing:content-box; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">וּמַלְאַ֣ךְ</span><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"> </span><span id="x_gmail-m_4143761424350053394M_6_21_22" style="box-sizing:content-box; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">ה'</span><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"> </span><span id="x_gmail-m_4143761424350053394M_6_21_23" style="box-sizing:content-box; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">הָלַ֖ךְ</span><span style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"> </span><span id="x_gmail-m_4143761424350053394M_6_21_24" style="box-sizing:content-box; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">מֵעֵינָֽיו</span></font></span></div>
<div><span style="box-sizing:content-box; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><span style="text-align:justify; font-size:15px"><font face="Lucida Grande">ה'
<b>נָתַ֔ן</b> וַיהוָ֖ה לָקָ֑ח</font></span></span></div>
<div><span style="box-sizing:content-box; background-color:rgb(255,255,255); font-size:15px"><font face="Lucida Grande"><span id="x_gmail-m_4143761424350053394M_8_12_4" style="box-sizing:content-box">ה'</span> <span id="x_gmail-m_4143761424350053394M_8_12_5" style="box-sizing:content-box"><b>אָמַ֔ר</b></span> <span id="x_gmail-m_4143761424350053394M_8_12_6" style="box-sizing:content-box">לִשְׁכֹּ֖ן</span> <span id="x_gmail-m_4143761424350053394M_8_12_7" style="box-sizing:content-box">בָּעֲרָפֶֽל</span></font></span></div>
<div><span style="box-sizing:content-box; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><font face="Lucida Grande"><span style="box-sizing:content-box; font-size:15px"><br>
</span></font></span></div>
<div><font style="font-size:15px" face="Lucida Grande">While in the verses in Tehillim where the verbs have trop MISHNE they are with Tzurat Hefsek:</font></div>
<div><font style="font-size:15px" face="Lucida Grande"><span style="text-align:justify; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"> </span><span style="text-align:justify; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">אִמְר֤וּ בַגּוֹיִ֨ם | יְה֘וָ֤ה מָלָ֗ךְ (Tehillim 96:10)</span></font></div>
<div><span style="text-align:justify; background-color:rgb(255,255,255); font-size:15px"><font face="Lucida Grande">יְהוָ֣ה מָ֭לָךְ תָּגֵ֣ל הָאָ֑רֶץ (Tehillim 97:1)</font></span></div>
<div><span style="text-align:justify; background-color:rgb(255,255,255); font-size:15px"><font face="Lucida Grande">יְהוָ֣ה מָלָךְ֮ גֵּא֪וּת לָ֫בֵ֥שׁ (Tehillim 93:1)</font></span></div>
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<div><span style="font-size:15px"><font face="Lucida Grande">Aharon</font></span></div>
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<div>On Jul 2, 2020, at 11:28 PM, M. Hamm <<a href="mailto:msh210@gmail.com" target="_blank">msh210@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div>
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<div dir="auto">R' Seth Mandel: <<Conceptually, it might be appropriate to have different forms of verbs and adjectives used for God. Next time you invent a language, you can feel free to try. But in dealing with facts, no human language that know of does
that.>></div>
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Perhaps not, but <i>Tanach</i> has unusual constructions in His honor. <i>Minchas Shay
</i>IIRC gives His honor as a reason for the <i>dagesh</i> in "<i>mi kamocha</i>" in
<i>Az yashir</i>; and I <b>seem</b> to recall reading somewhere that appearing between two copies of His name is why "<i>mik'dash</i>", also in <span style="font-family:sans-serif"><i>Az yashir</i>, has a
<i>dagesh</i> "<i>l'sif'eres</i>". So maybe </span><font face="sans-serif"><i>malach</i><i style="font-weight:bold">
</i>instead</font><span style="font-family:sans-serif"> of </span><font face="sans-serif"><i>mal'ach</i>, too?</font></div>
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<div dir="auto"><font face="sans-serif">M.</font></div>
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