[Mesorah] Hoshanot: Samech vs Sin

[Akiva Miller]

If I  understand RSM correctly, there were three [insert correct noun
here]s:

First, there was a letter he refers to as "original samekh". This is where
the word was always spelled with a samekh, and still is.

In other cases, the word was spelled with a "sin form". This letter is
actually a samekh, but it looks like a sin and that's very confusing. So
they (whoever "they" are) decided to draw it like a samekh. But in older
texts, the original appearance is kept, despite the confusion.

The third group has words that were always spelled with a sin, and still
are.

RSM, would it be fair to compare that middle category to the
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_s in English? That letter is truly an
s, but so many moderns confuse it with the f, and even ridicule it as such
(as documented in that Wiki article). Similarly, these letters are truly
samekh, but we mistakenly think it to be a misplaced sin when we see it
between nun and ayin.

Akiva Miller



On Sun, Oct 20, 2019, 2:42 PM Mandel, Seth <mandels at ou.org> wrote:

> It is not so much a change in spelling, but the abandonment of the sin
> form in writing:  if it is the same letter as samekh, better use the
> samekh, which prevents misreading.
> You will never find an original samekh written as a sin.  The change was
> one way only.
>
> Rabbi Dr. Seth Mandel
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Mesorah <mesorah-bounces at lists.aishdas.org> on behalf of Sholom
> Simon via Mesorah <mesorah at lists.aishdas.org>
> *Sent:* Sunday, October 20, 2019 2:33 PM
> *To:* Akiva Miller <akivagmiller at gmail.com>
> *Cc:* Mesorah AishDas List <Mesorah at lists.aishdas.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Mesorah] Hoshanot: Samech vs Sin
>
> And in Ha'aderes v'He'emuna, we have, at the place where a samech would
> be: siguy (with a samech) but segev (with a sin)
>
> Spelling did change over time . . . e.g., the word Sota -- in Torah with a
> sin (Bamidbar 5:12, 5:29), in Talmud with a samech, which is why Rambam is
> insistent on using a sin, but (most?) everybody else used a samech.
>
> But what I thought RHT was asking about was the *pattern* he saw, rather
> than simply a replacement of sin/samech.
>
> On Sun, Oct 20, 2019 at 1:58 PM Akiva Miller via Mesorah <
> mesorah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote:
>
> Same thing in Kel Adon and lots of other places, like last week's Al Chet
> - Sikur ayin and Siach sifsoseinu. I  once make a list of them, but I'm not
> home right now. If you want a project for yomtov afternoon,  just grab a
> few machzorim (don't forget kinos and selichos!) and go on a treasure hunt.
>
> WHY and HOW this happened is far beyond me. These authors seem to have
> been geniuses at fancy Hebrew grammar -- I can't accept that these are
> rudimentary spelling errors. Maybe the "correct" spelling changed over time
> (like the yud that was added to David in Divrei Hayamim), but for such a
> great variety of words?
>
> I'm confident that Rabbi Mandell will come along and enlighten us, but
> YomTov will be here soon, so I wanted to post this just in case.
>
> Akiva Miller
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 20, 2019, 1:37 PM Henry Topas via Mesorah <
> mesorah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote:
>
> Moed Tov,
>
> One of my congregants has asked me why in the sequence of this morning's
> hoshanot, phrases in the position of samech have been replaced with
> phrases beginning with the letter sin in the last 4 of the 7 beginning
> paragraphs and again in many of the later "Hoshana Rabba only" paragraphs?
>
> Thank you and a Git Kvitel,
>
> HT
> _______________________________________________
> Mesorah mailing list
> Mesorah at lists.aishdas.org
> http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/mesorah-aishdas.org
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.aishdas.org_listinfo.cgi_mesorah-2Daishdas.org&d=DwMFaQ&c=VTwaeXjOsAHot2hQQ0nozrBJwyviuCtydNuGwYGfYiI&r=e6XbAQdGwcl_5FMtQ-t1eA&m=J1Hjb6vq4Ks9tPPGoRq84XGb60j-VG_qdqGYGg9-8h4&s=bLyFj-Ul7Le2IOSwIgsOM1e84X2LzvwYd8Wtmz972Wk&e=>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Mesorah mailing list
> Mesorah at lists.aishdas.org
> http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/mesorah-aishdas.org
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.aishdas.org_listinfo.cgi_mesorah-2Daishdas.org&d=DwMFaQ&c=VTwaeXjOsAHot2hQQ0nozrBJwyviuCtydNuGwYGfYiI&r=e6XbAQdGwcl_5FMtQ-t1eA&m=J1Hjb6vq4Ks9tPPGoRq84XGb60j-VG_qdqGYGg9-8h4&s=bLyFj-Ul7Le2IOSwIgsOM1e84X2LzvwYd8Wtmz972Wk&e=>
>
>
>
> Legal Disclaimer
>
> The contents of this email and any attachments are intended solely for the
> addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or legally privileged
> information. You must not use or disclose them other than for the purposes
> for which they were supplied. If you are not the intended recipient of this
> message, or if this message has been addressed to you in error, please
> immediately alert the sender by reply email and then delete or destroy all
> copies of this message and any attachments. If you are not the intended
> recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, copying, or
> storage of this message or its attachments is strictly prohibited and may
> be unlawful. Any privilege or confidentiality pertaining to this email and
> attachments is not waived by reason of mistaken delivery to you.
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/mesorah-aishdas.org/attachments/20191020/f85e5eeb/attachment-0002.htm>