[Mesorah] K'AN, KADUN, NA

Mon Nov 18 06:13:14 PST 2019

> that the development from the temporal sense to the wider meanings<
I wonder if the same happened to the words K’an and Kdon.
In the Tanach the word “K’an” as it appears in Ezra and Daniel only, means “now”.
I did not find the word “Kadun”, only in the targum called “Targum Yonatan”.
A person that speaks Aramaic told me that both words mean “now”.
The origin of the words (he said) are K’IDAN” .

It looks like these words in the old days and also today mean “Now”.
When we read the source and the commentaries, there are verses in the Tanach where it is clear that the meaning of “NA”
is “please”, or at least a word that comes to soften a command, still the Targumim write “k’an” or “kadun”.

It is hard for me to understand that the Targumim understood almost all “na” as “now”.
Do these two words widen to the meaning of baksha or idun (soften, moderate)?

Thanks,

Aharon

I wonder if the 
> On Nov 14, 2019, at 8:01 AM, Mandel, Seth <mandels at ou.org> wrote:
> 
> That was my point, that the development from the temporal sense to the wider meanings is common among many languages, not only English, but Hebrew, Aramaic, German, and others.  So it should be a surprise to no one that a word meaning "at this time" also has these other usages in other languages. and so would be used to translate "v¯atta" in German, English, Spanish, and Aramaic.
> 
> Rabbi Dr. Seth Mandel
> From: Aharon Gal <galsaba at aol.com <mailto:galsaba at aol.com>>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2019 9:40 PM
> To: Mandel, Seth <mandels at ou.org <mailto:mandels at ou.org>>
> Cc: mesorah at lists.aishdas.org <mailto:mesorah at lists.aishdas.org> <mesorah at lists.aishdas.org <mailto:mesorah at lists.aishdas.org>>
> Subject: Re: [Mesorah] KEAN, NA, VE'ATA
>  
> It looks like the word K’AN in is very similar to the word “Now” as described by Merriam-Webster Dictionary:
> 1a1. : At the present time or moment
> "Now is the time for action".
> 22. Used with the sense of present time weakened or lost to express command, request, or admonition
> (“נא” in Hebrew . אהרן)
> "now hear this"
> "now you be sure to write"
> 33. Used with the sense of present time weakened or lost to introduce an important point or indicate a transition (as of ideas)
> "now, this may seem reasonable at first"
> 
> Here is the complete page:
> https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/now?src=search-dict-hed <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.merriam-2Dwebster.com_dictionary_now-3Fsrc-3Dsearch-2Ddict-2Dhed&d=DwMF_Q&c=VTwaeXjOsAHot2hQQ0nozrBJwyviuCtydNuGwYGfYiI&r=e6XbAQdGwcl_5FMtQ-t1eA&m=wvJPT3TvDMzouEmNYav3on_vR_XAG8RxOvBZub2YWm8&s=EgOYJKdQDpookXupUOgjsNBrgRtuv0A5k22TIXd058c&e=>
> 
> Aharon
> 
>> On Nov 12, 2019, at 1:07 PM, Mandel, Seth <mandels at ou.org <mailto:mandels at ou.org>> wrote:
>> 
>> First of all, let us be precise.  You mean w‘atTO, and not ’atTO or ’OTto.
>> The word ‘atTO as a proper adverb has the specific meaning of "now," as opposed to "previously" or "later." That is also the meaning of Aramaic k‘an.
>> However, to go further, just look at the English word "now."  Besides its temporal meaning, it is used as a conjunctive preposition, e.g. in a clause like "and now we see that Senator X is not telling the truth." The two words "and" plus "now" mean that in almost all languages. It means "in light of what we have said or discussed."
>> So "and" plus "now" serves as a conjunctive adverb for the entire clause.
>> (See how I pulled a fast one: I began the last sentence with "so," which has the exact same meaning, "in light of what we said.")
>> But there are certain syntactical limitations for using the word/phrase in that way:  it has to be at the beginning of the sentence, usually with the vav.  If the word appears elsewhere, it has the normal  adverbial  temporal meaning.
>> One needs look no further than p'sukim that one says every day.  All Jewish communities say in P'sukei d'Zimra before starting Chapters 145-150 of Sefer T'hillim a few other p'suqqim.  The second of them is from Psalms 113:2:
>> יְהִי שֵׁם יְיָ מְבֹרָךְ מֵעַתָּה וְעַד-עוֹלָם
>> 
>> It is absolutely clear that the meaning here is the temporal one.
>> OTOH, after the end of Chapter 150 of T'hillim, a few p'sukim from various places outside of T'hillim, including the section beginning "Vayvorekh David," 4 psukim from I Chronicles 29:10-13. 
>> The last of those p'suqqim states
>> וְעַתָּה אֱלֹקֵינוּ מוֹדִים אֲנַחְנוּ לָךְ, וּמְהַלְלִים לְשֵׁם תִּפְאַרְתֶּךָ.
>> If one looks at the section, it is absolutely clear that this is the second of the two meanings we mentioned, and should be translated "So/and now/in light of this." Note that the words are at the beginning and have the vav.
>> To summarize: in English, as in Biblical Hebrew, as in many other languages, the word "now" is both used in a temporal sense and as a clause modifier "it follows/in light of this." 
>> Aramaic uses the word "k‘an" in both senses also.  In particular, we find t'shuvos of the G'onim which use the word "k‘an" at the beginning of a sentence clearly in the second meaning, so [excuse the word] it is a real Aramaic usage, not something that only Unqulos used for his translation.
>> The Biblical word "na" has a different considerations and I will leave that for another time.
>> 
>> Rabbi Dr. Seth Mandel
>> Rabbinic Coordinator
>> The Orthodox Union
>> 
>> Voice and Fax (212) 613-8330        e-mail mandels at ou.org <mailto:mandels at ou.org>
>> 
>> From: Mesorah <mesorah-bounces at lists.aishdas.org <mailto:mesorah-bounces at lists.aishdas.org>> on behalf of Aharon Gal via Mesorah <mesorah at lists.aishdas.org <mailto:mesorah at lists.aishdas.org>>
>> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2019 8:36 AM
>> To: mesorah at lists.aishdas.org <mailto:mesorah at lists.aishdas.org> <mesorah at lists.aishdas.org <mailto:mesorah at lists.aishdas.org>>
>> Subject: [Mesorah] KEAN, NA, VE'ATA
>>  
>> 
>> I want to have a better understanding about the words NA and ATA in Hebrew, 
>> Seems to me that NA is not just “now” or just “please”.  
>> As for the word ATA, and more “VE’ATA”, based on the pesukim, it sounds in many places as “therefore”, rather than “now”.
>> 
>> In Vayera “IM NA MATZATI CHEN”, Unkelos translates NA as “Kean”.  “Kean” is known as “now”, but does really Unkelos mean “now”? i am not sure if “kean” is always “now”, and if it is “now” in this pasuk.  
>> 
>> Also I curious to know why Yonatan Ben Uziel translates NA in this pasuk as “bevau” and “kadun”.  This shows me that NA is not exactly “please” and not exactly “now”.
>> 
>> I am aware what Rashi says about the word NA, and what the Ibn Ezra says, but their perushim not always work when I try to replace NA with what their explanation.
>> 
>> On the pasuk “Erda Na ve’er’e ha’ke’tza’a’tah,”, it is hard for me to accept that here NA is “Please”, but also I am not sure that it means “now” .  I don’t see why the adverb “now” is needed here.
>> 
>> I am sure people wrote about the word “NA”. I am interested to know what your opinion on this word. More than this, I would like to know what “Kean” is. Seems to me that it is more than “now.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> 
>> Aharon
>>  
>>  
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