[Mesorah] Bamidbar 23:18

[Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon]

The answer to that question varies by time and place. for the Tiberians, a
shva na had different pronunciations, depending on the vowel and/or letter
following. However, the default was to pronounce it like a chataf patach.
Other times it would be pronounced like a chataf kamatz, chataf segol, and
even a chataf chirik (which appears in some manuscripts.) the only modern
pronunciation to retain at least the chataf patach aspect of this is that
of (some) yeminites.

Other modern pronunciations, including standard Israeli, American and
European ones pronounce as shva na as a short segol. Unlike the tiberians,
though, who pronounced a shva na iwthhte same length as a chataf vowel, our
short segol is shorter that what we do for  a chataf segol.

Jeremy

On Sun, Jul 1, 2018 at 7:20 PM, Sholom Simon via Mesorah <
mesorah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote:

> Or, perhaps the question should be:
>
> Is there any difference in pronunciation between a shva na and a chataf
> patach? !
>
> -- Sholom
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 1, 2018 at 7:04 PM, Henry Topas via Mesorah <
> mesorah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote:
>
>> Thank you Rabbi Mandel.
>>
>> Should I then understand the chattam to be more of a place holder and the
>> shwa to be pronounced (as a shwa na) as opposed to the chattaf patach?
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> > On Jul 1, 2018, at 6:46 PM, Mandel, Seth <mandels at ou.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > Dear Mr. Topas,
>> > The answer to your question does not lie in any grammar book yet
>> written, all of which are based on the printed text of the T’NaKh.
>> > But the T’NaKh existed for a little b’h time before printing was
>> invented, and the Ben Asher school of Masoretes became acknowledged as the
>> most careful. They had many differences with other school (e.g. they
>> punctuated  “b’yisrael,” whereas other groups punctuated it as “bisrael”).
>> > Aharon Ben Asher, the latest and greatest of the family, was developing
>> a system of using the vowels to reflect very small differences in how words
>> are pronounced, for instance when the sh’wa is pronounced and when it is
>> silent. One way he did that was to use a Chatham vowel instead of a plain
>> sh’wa.
>> > The Masorah shows that sometimes the sh’wa was pronounced after the
>> prefix “u-“ although most of the time it is not. They show when it is,
>> Aharon Ben Asher and some other members of his school used the chataph
>> vowel.
>> > So the direct shottbandwer to your query is: to show that the sh’wa
>> undervthe shin is not silent but rather pronounced.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >> On July 1, 2018 at 4:51:29 PM EDT, Henry Topas via Mesorah <
>> mesorah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote:
>> >> In yesterday's kriat hatorah, the phrase "kum balak u'sh'ma" is
>> vowelized in many seforim as "kum balak u'sha'mah with a chataf patach in
>> place of the sh'va.  The Minchas Shai also draws one's attention to the
>> same situation in Va'etchanan on the phrase "k'rav atah u'sh'mah or
>> u'sha'mah" and in Daniel "Hatei .....aznecha u'sh'ma".
>> >>
>> >> My understanding was always that the vav ha-chibur changes to the
>> shuruk when followed by a consonant vowelized by a sh'va (or if followed by
>> either vet, vav, mem or phay)
>> >>
>> >> If the shuruk at the beginning of the word is a given, why would the
>> chataf patach be an option instead of the shva?
>> >>
>> >> Thank you,
>> >>
>> >> Henry Topas
>> >> Dollard des Ormeaux, Montreal
>> >>
>> >>
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>>
>
>
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-- 
Jeremy R. Simon, MD, PhD, FACEP
Associate Professor of Medicine at CUMC (Emergency Medicine)
Columbia University
Editor, The Routledge Companion to Philosophy of Medicine
*https://www.routledge.com/products/9781138846791
<https://www.routledge.com/products/9781138846791>*
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