[Mesorah] Bamidbar 23:18

[Sholom Simon]

Or, perhaps the question should be:

Is there any difference in pronunciation between a shva na and a chataf
patach? !

-- Sholom


On Sun, Jul 1, 2018 at 7:04 PM, Henry Topas via Mesorah <
mesorah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote:

> Thank you Rabbi Mandel.
>
> Should I then understand the chattam to be more of a place holder and the
> shwa to be pronounced (as a shwa na) as opposed to the chattaf patach?
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Jul 1, 2018, at 6:46 PM, Mandel, Seth <mandels at ou.org> wrote:
> >
> > Dear Mr. Topas,
> > The answer to your question does not lie in any grammar book yet
> written, all of which are based on the printed text of the T’NaKh.
> > But the T’NaKh existed for a little b’h time before printing was
> invented, and the Ben Asher school of Masoretes became acknowledged as the
> most careful. They had many differences with other school (e.g. they
> punctuated  “b’yisrael,” whereas other groups punctuated it as “bisrael”).
> > Aharon Ben Asher, the latest and greatest of the family, was developing
> a system of using the vowels to reflect very small differences in how words
> are pronounced, for instance when the sh’wa is pronounced and when it is
> silent. One way he did that was to use a Chatham vowel instead of a plain
> sh’wa.
> > The Masorah shows that sometimes the sh’wa was pronounced after the
> prefix “u-“ although most of the time it is not. They show when it is,
> Aharon Ben Asher and some other members of his school used the chataph
> vowel.
> > So the direct shottbandwer to your query is: to show that the sh’wa
> undervthe shin is not silent but rather pronounced.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> On July 1, 2018 at 4:51:29 PM EDT, Henry Topas via Mesorah <
> mesorah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote:
> >> In yesterday's kriat hatorah, the phrase "kum balak u'sh'ma" is
> vowelized in many seforim as "kum balak u'sha'mah with a chataf patach in
> place of the sh'va.  The Minchas Shai also draws one's attention to the
> same situation in Va'etchanan on the phrase "k'rav atah u'sh'mah or
> u'sha'mah" and in Daniel "Hatei .....aznecha u'sh'ma".
> >>
> >> My understanding was always that the vav ha-chibur changes to the
> shuruk when followed by a consonant vowelized by a sh'va (or if followed by
> either vet, vav, mem or phay)
> >>
> >> If the shuruk at the beginning of the word is a given, why would the
> chataf patach be an option instead of the shva?
> >>
> >> Thank you,
> >>
> >> Henry Topas
> >> Dollard des Ormeaux, Montreal
> >>
> >>
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