[Mesorah] a kleinigkeit

[Michael Poppers]

Thanks, R'Simon!  I think MM (esp. in their rule#6) is trying to say that
they placed a comma after "vayom'ru" because it was graced with the first
half's first significant *mafsiq* -- essentially, their punctuation marks
(e.g. commas) are not meant for *pisuq t'amim* as much as for merely
marking [the presence of certain] *mafsiqim* in the edition of their
Web-based TaNaCH that doesn't have cantillation marks.

On Tue, Jan 30, 2018 at 12:16 AM, Simon Montagu <simon.montagu at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Here is MM's own explanation of their punctuation rules.
> http://mechon-mamre.org/i/aboutpsq.htm (Personally I am more confused
> after reading it than I was before)
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 30, 2018 at 5:07 AM, Michael Poppers via Mesorah <
> mesorah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote:
>
>> >  Mechón Mamet uses a technical rule: every mafsiq on trop gets at
>> least a comma. Regardless of whether it makes any sense <
>> "every"?  In that *pasuq*, did MM list a comma after "l'qachtanu" (
>> *tipcha*)?  No <http://www.mechon-mamre.org/i/t/t0214.htm>.
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 1:38 PM, Mandel, Seth via Mesorah <
>> mesorah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Mechón Mamet uses a technical rule: every mafsiq on trop gets at least a
>>> comma. Regardless of whether it makes any sense.
>>>
>>>
>>> Rabbi Dr. Seth Mandel
>>>
>>> On January 28, 2018 at 11:28:58 AM CST, Akiva Miller via Mesorah <
>>> mesorah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> In the thread "a kleinigkeit", Rabbi Mandel posted a pasuk which is an
>>> excellent illustration of a question I've wondered about. He posted it
>>> as:
>>>
>>> יד:יא וַיֹּאמְרוּ, אֶל-מֹשֶׁה הֲמִבְּלִי אֵיןקְבָרִים בְּמִצְרַיִם
>>> לְקַחְתָּנוּ לָמוּת בַּמִּדְבָּר, מַה-זֹּאת עָשִׂיתָ לָּנוּ
>>> לְהוֹצִיאָנוּ מִמִּצְרָvayomru el Moshe" is zarka-segol. Why would
>>> anyone put a comma for zarka? Does the zarka function as a mafsik
>>> here? "Vayomru el Moshe" is a phrase, a unit in which a comma is
>>> totally inappropriate. What am I missing?
>>>
>>> Akiva Miller
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jan 28, 2018 at 11:11 AM, Mandel, Seth via Mesorah
>>> <mesorah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote:
>>> > I call it that because most people only care about masorah if it
>>> changes the
>>> > meaning or the pronunciation.
>>> >
>>> > But the non-defenestrated denizens of the Mesorah group understand
>>> that the
>>> > masorah is much deeper than such things, and is important in light of
>>> the
>>> > number of rishonim who spent time on it.
>>> >
>>> > So I am mentioning something that I shamefully admit that I was
>>> unaware of
>>> > all my years:
>>> >
>>> > In the pasuq:
>>> >
>>> > יד:יא וַיֹּאמְרוּ, אֶל-מֹשֶׁה הֲמִבְּלִי אֵיןקְבָרִים בְּמִצְרַ
>>> לְקַחְתָּנוּ לָמוּת בַּמִּדְבָּר, מַה-זֹּאת עָשִׂיתָ לָּנוּ לְהוֹצִיאָנוּ
>>> > מִמִּצְרָ
>>>
>>> > regarding the word "hamibb'li," all printed Chumashim have the
>>> punctuation
>>> > as is above, with a hataph-patah under the he'.
>>> >
>>> > However, that is not the puncuation in the kisvei yad that represent
>>> the
>>> > Ben-Asher masorah. Rather, all of them, without exception have a full
>>> patah
>>> > — WITH a ge‘aya/AKA meteg. As the meritorious members of this group are
>>> > aware, that means that the syllable "ha" is lengthened and has a
>>> secondary
>>> > stress.
>>> >
>>> > The Minchas Shai already noticed this issue. He notes that R. Yonah
>>> had it
>>> > with a full patah, and it is the R'DaQ who says it should be a
>>> hataph-patah
>>> > based on S'faradi mss. He even goes on to say that there are some who
>>> claim
>>> > that the ms. on which R.Yonah was basing himself was the Aleppo Codex.
>>> That
>>> > means to me that the Minchas Shay, without being able to decide the
>>> matter,
>>> > attaches serious weight to the view of R. Yonah.
>>> >
>>> > In any event, now we can be certain based on the better mss. that we
>>> have.
>>> >
>>> > Prescriptive grammarians, who hold that the he' hash'elah should
>>> always have
>>> > a hataph-patah, of course will be disturbed. But as we know, the
>>> Masorah
>>> > did not believe in prescriptive grammar, only in descriptive.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Rabbi Dr. Seth Mandel
>>> > Rabbinic Coordinator
>>> > The Orthodox Union
>>> >
>>> > Voice (212) 613-8330 Fax (212) 613-0718 e-mail mandels at ou.org
>>> >
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>>> >
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>>
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