[Mesorah] teven

[Sholom Simon via Mesorah]

I looked through some notes I had from a phone discussion with RSM.  Here
are my notes (which I don't fully understand now, but I think there is a
lot of overlap between the notes and what RMP just said).  Any errors are
mine.  I've also included my own annotation in brackets based on RMP's
response:

===========
The question was a pasuk that ended with "nesech," wondering why is wasn't
"nasach"

RSM's answer: things aren’t always what they seem on the surface.  I.e., he
fell is “hifal”, the nun got dropped.

My king: Melech goes to malki, why isn’t is melechi?

Segolate nouns: two syllables with two segols, accent on first syllable,
but when suffix appaers, second syllable disappears.   E.g., zecher ->
zicrhi; eved -> avdi.  Note that another vowel appears.  Malki has pasach;
zichri has tziri.  Really behind the scenes is that the shoresh of these
words, in the first syllable, it is a pasach (for melech), or a tziri (in
zecher)!

[me: I think the prior sentence was referencing what RMP was calling QaTL
and QiTL segolates]

When it come to a sof posuk, or a suffix, a pasach turns to kamatz (ani,
awni; atah awtah).  Kom to kamti.  But there’s no rule that a segol becomes
a kamatz.  [me: i.e., as RMP said: QtLT segolates don't change on a the
primary pauses]

So, if what we *think* is a segol but is a pasach, it reverts back to a
pasach!  (Another example:  “seed” -- zerah, zari.  So and end of the pasuk
it’s zarah)

Neshech becomes nishki.  It’s a tziri that’s behind the scenes!  [me: i.e.,
neshech is a QiTL segolate]

How do we know that melech is really a pasach?  (Malki – look at the word
with a suffix?).  No other nouns have accent on first syllable!  (Lechem.
Lakmi.)
=============

Me: so, if I'm understanding this correctly, would "my straw" be "tivni" ??

-- Sholom


On Fri, Jan 1, 2016 at 1:11 PM, Michael Poppers <michaelpoppers at gmail.com>
wrote:

> The basic explanation I've heard (I'm paraphrasing RGEK in this Leining
> thread
> <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/leining/hxAl32DdPfs/TlHbAjb7cdoJ>)
> is that
> -- the first vowel of segolates (nouns which have two segol vowels in
> their basic form) can change to either a patach or a chiriq when in a
> possessive (or conjunctive) form (those whose 1st vowel changes to patach
> are referred to as QaTL segolates, while those whose 1st vowel changes to
> chiriq are referred to as QiTL segolates); that
> -- with a few exceptions, on a major pause the patach of a QaTL's first
> segol will change to a qamatz, while no generalization can be made re what
> happens to a QiTL's first segol on a major pause; and that
> -- "teven" is a QiTL, and re it we don't see the 1st segol change to a
> qamatz on a major pause.
>
> A gut'n Shabbes/Shabbas Shalom
> and all the best from
> *Michael Poppers* * Elizabeth, NJ, USA
>
> On Fri, Jan 1, 2016 at 11:14 AM, Sholom Simon via Mesorah <
> mesorah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote:
>
>> I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I'm fuzzy on it, and I'd
>> like to be reminded vis-a-vis a specific application to this word.
>>
>> I see the word "teven" at the end of a number of psukim in the 7th
>> aliyah.  So, why is it not "taven" ?
>>
>> -- Sholom
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>
>
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