[Mesorah] teven

Sun Jan 3 12:36:51 PST 2016

Isn't this a minor error?In "When it come to a sof posuk, or a suffix, a pasach turns to kamatz (ani, awni; atah awtah)," shouldn't that be ataw awtaw?  (Please pardon my nonstandard transliteration and my failure to relate to the names of vowels.)

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 On Sunday, 3 January 2016 9:18 PM, Sholom Simon via Mesorah <mesorah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote:

 I looked through some notes I had from a phone discussion with RSM.  Here are my notes (which I don't fully understand now, but I think there is a lot of overlap between the notes and what RMP just said).  Any errors are mine.  I've also included my own annotation in brackets based on RMP's response:

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The question was a pasuk that ended with "nesech," wondering why is wasn't "nasach"

RSM's answer: things aren’t always what they seem on the surface.  I.e., he fell is “hifal”, the nun got dropped.  

My king: Melech goes to malki, why isn’t is melechi?  

Segolate nouns: two syllables with two segols, accent on first syllable, but when suffix appaers, second syllable disappears.   E.g., zecher -> zicrhi; eved -> avdi.  Note that another vowel appears.  Malki has pasach; zichri has tziri.  Really behind the scenes is that the shoresh of these words, in the first syllable, it is a pasach (for melech), or a tziri (in zecher)! 

[me: I think the prior sentence was referencing what RMP was calling QaTL and QiTL segolates]

When it come to a sof posuk, or a suffix, a pasach turns to kamatz (ani, awni; atah awtah).  Kom to kamti.  But there’s no rule that a segol becomes a kamatz.  [me: i.e., as RMP said: QtLT segolates don't change on a the primary pauses]

So, if what we *think* is a segol but is a pasach, it reverts back to a pasach!  (Another example:  “seed” -- zerah, zari.  So and end of the pasuk it’s zarah)

Neshech becomes nishki.  It’s a tziri that’s behind the scenes!  [me: i.e., neshech is a QiTL segolate]

How do we know that melech is really a pasach?  (Malki – look at the word with a suffix?).  No other nouns have accent on first syllable!  (Lechem.  Lakmi.)
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Me: so, if I'm understanding this correctly, would "my straw" be "tivni" ??

-- Sholom

On Fri, Jan 1, 2016 at 1:11 PM, Michael Poppers <michaelpoppers at gmail.com> wrote:

The basic explanation I've heard (I'm paraphrasing RGEK in this Leining thread) is that-- the first vowel of segolates (nouns which have two segol vowels in their basic form) can change to either a patach or a chiriq when in a possessive (or conjunctive) form (those whose 1st vowel changes to patach are referred to as QaTL segolates, while those whose 1st vowel changes to chiriq are referred to as QiTL segolates); that-- with a few exceptions, on a major pause the patach of a QaTL's first segol will change to a qamatz, while no generalization can be made re what happens to a QiTL's first segol on a major pause; and that-- "teven" is a QiTL, and re it we don't see the 1st segol change to a qamatz on a major pause.
A gut'n Shabbes/Shabbas Shalomand all the best fromMichael Poppers * Elizabeth, NJ, USA
On Fri, Jan 1, 2016 at 11:14 AM, Sholom Simon via Mesorah <mesorah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote:

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I'm fuzzy on it, and I'd like to be reminded vis-a-vis a specific application to this word.

I see the word "teven" at the end of a number of psukim in the 7th aliyah.  So, why is it not "taven" ?

-- Sholom

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