[Mesorah] Vav hahipuch

Sun Nov 1 14:24:03 PST 2015

The stress also changes with vav hahipuch.
You  said - a-mar'-ta  -  past tense,  accented on the penultimate
syllable/ mileil.  Example Bamidbar 11 21.
Or  Amarti Dvarim 32 26,  both mileil. Past tense.

You will say -  ve-a-mar-ta' accented on the last syllable, milra,  future.
Dvarim 26 5.

Shmot 17 pasuk 5 hiki'ta past tense the staff you hit the rock with.
Pasuk 6 (the very next pasuk) vehikita' future tense you shall strike,
accent on the last syllable.

IMHO,  mixing up the two is definitely a mistake which changes the
meaning, (from future to past) and must be corrected on the spot,
politely,  by discerning Mesorah  members.
Dov Bloom
There are similar frequent changes of tense in Shirat David, Shmuel II,
22.  Look for example at pesukim 19, 20, 36, 37, 38 and 39.  For the latter
two, the parallel pesukim in Tehillim 18 "correct" the tenses to future
only.
RYD's explanation works nicely here too, or maybe being a song, it is
simply poetic licence.

This leads me to a question: if the Maftir mixes up the vavei hahipuch with
the vavei hachibur when reading Shirat David (and many do), should he be
corrected?

Danny Levy

2015-10-29 20:26 GMT+02:00 Michael Poppers via Mesorah <
mesorah at lists.aishdas.org>:

> RYD responded:
> > I was hoping some of the big guns may have already weighed in, but
> since not, may I propose that perhaps the simplest response is that every
> rule has its exceptions. It may also be related to what GKC 107b n.3 calls
> "dogmatic emendation ... in order to represent historical statements as
> promises". See
> https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Gesenius'_Hebrew_Grammar/107._Use_of_the_Imperfect#cite_note-3
>  <
> I was hoping that a listmember would come up w/ an explanation for what
> seemed like an exceptional case, so thank you, RYD!
>
> > Incidentally, although  CDGinsburg lists no mss with such a
> vocalization, HUBP does refer to a Genizah ms with a kamatz there. And BHS
> of course cites other sources that testify to, or at least imply, a kamatz.
> (and while probably anathema to most members here, it should be mentioned
> that many [most?] modern commentators do recommend a revision to kamatz
> here. FWIW) <
> Last night, I checked the Aleppo Codex Website and saw that the vav had a
> sh'va.
>
> A gut'n Shabbes and all the best from *Michael*
>
> On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 1:03 PM, Yisrael Dubitsky via Mesorah <
> mesorah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote:
>
>> I was hoping some of the big guns may have already weighed in, but since
>> not, may I propose that perhaps the simplest response is that every rule
>> has its exceptions. It may also be related to what GKC 107b n.3 calls
>> "dogmatic emendation ... in order to represent historical statements as
>> promises". See
>> https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Gesenius'_Hebrew_Grammar/107._Use_of_the_Imperfect#cite_note-3
>>
>> Incidentally, although  CDGinsburg lists no mss with such a vocalization,
>> HUBP does refer to a Genizah ms with a kamatz there. And BHS of course
>> cites other sources that testify to, or at least imply, a kamatz. (and
>> while probably anathema to most members here, it should be mentioned that
>> many [most?] modern commentators do recommend a revision to kamatz here.
>> FWIW)
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 4:39 PM, Gershon Dubin via Mesorah <
>> mesorah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Even according to the Malbim it may still mean past tense;  all the
>>> other mefarshim learn it clearly that way.  Question stands.
>>>
>>> Gershon
>>> gershon.dubin at juno.com
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------- Original Message ----------
>>> From: Simon Montagu <simon.montagu at gmail.com>
>>> To: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin at juno.com>
>>> Cc: "mesorah at aishdas.org" <mesorah at aishdas.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [Mesorah] Vav hahipuch
>>> Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2015 16:28:41 +0200
>>>
>>> On Wed, Oct 28, 2015 at 4:19 PM, Gershon Dubin via Mesorah <
>>> mesorah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Look at Yeshaya 48:3.  In the word "ve'ashmi'em";  why does the nikud
>>>> on the vav not change to kamatz since it's avar and not asid?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Why are you sure it's avar? See Malbim
>>> https://he.wikisource.org/wiki/%D7%9E%D7%9C%D7%91%D7%99%22%D7%9D_%D7%A2%D7%9C_%D7%99%D7%A9%D7%A2%D7%99%D7%94%D7%95_%D7%9E%D7%97_%D7%92
>>>
>>>
>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>> *Extended Stay America*
>>>
>>> https://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/280917141;116012120;i?http://www.extendedstayamerica.com/?mid=dis-fix-0-aol-tex
>>> <http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3132/5630de65e1d455e6508d3st01vuc>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Mesorah mailing list
>>> Mesorah at lists.aishdas.org
>>> http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/mesorah-aishdas.org
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Mesorah mailing list
>> Mesorah at lists.aishdas.org
>> http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/mesorah-aishdas.org
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Mesorah mailing list
> Mesorah at lists.aishdas.org
> http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/mesorah-aishdas.org
>
>

_______________________________________________
Mesorah mailing list
Mesorah at lists.aishdas.org
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/mesorah-aishdas.org
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/mesorah-aishdas.org/attachments/20151102/7de14b38/attachment-0005.htm>