[Mesorah] Goy Gadol? or Gadol Atzum?

Tue Apr 8 11:33:20 PDT 2014

My apologies for repetitions.  My first post on the matter, sent on Sunday, did not appear on Mesorah until I asked Micha what had happened.  My second post has still not appeared.  So I asked Micha to make sure my third post was sent out, and then it came out in multiple copies.
I appreciate your understanding.

Rabbi Dr. Seth Mandel
Rabbinic Coordinator
The Orthodox Union
11 Broadway, New York, NY  10004

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From: mesorah-bounces at lists.aishdas.org [mailto:mesorah-bounces at lists.aishdas.org] On Behalf Of sholom
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 2:27 PM
To: mesorah at lists.aishdas.org
Subject: Re: [Mesorah] Goy Gadol? or Gadol Atzum?

Unsure if RGD is exaggerating or not, but, as another data point, I got exactly 8 of them.  (So far)

On 2014-04-08 14:22, Gershon Dubin wrote:
Ignoring them?  I got 20 copies of this one!

Gershon
gershon.dubin at juno.com<mailto:gershon.dubin at juno.com>

---------- Original Message ----------
From: Micha Berger <micha at aishdas.org<mailto:micha at aishdas.org>>
To: mesorah at aishdas.org<mailto:mesorah at aishdas.org>
Subject: Re: [Mesorah] Goy Gadol? or Gadol Atzum?
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 14:21:25 -0400

It's taking me a while to figure out why the list server is ignoring
RSM's posts. So, in the meantime, here is one from this morning.

-micha

----- Forwarded message from "Mandel, Seth" <mandels at ou.org<mailto:mandels at ou.org>> -----
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 12:08:42 +0000
From: "Mandel, Seth" <mandels at ou.org<mailto:mandels at ou.org>>
Subject: RE: [Mesorah] Goy Gadol? or Gadol Atzum?
To: mesorah at aishdas.org<mailto:mesorah at aishdas.org>
CC: Micha Berger <micha at aishdas.org<mailto:micha at aishdas.org>>

Which is the larger issue that I was trying (unsuccessfully) to allude
to. Trop serves several functions, primarily parsing and cantillation.
Since everything requires trop, sometimes trop is not used to parse/divide
matters. Such as in most lists.

People have an unfortunate tendency to want black and white ideas, black
and white clothes, and black and white cookies. I have been saying for
years something I learned from RYBS but only realized how all-encompassing
it was years later: in applying Torah to the human world, usually nothing
is black and white, but shades of grey. It requires someone of real
stature, something most of us, including rabbis, cannot reach, to analyze
through the nuances and decide what is the best way, understanding that
in most cases there is no perfect solution. Since the rules of Hebrew,
including trop, are part of Torah, how could anyone think that they do
not follow the scheme of how the Torah operates?

The corollary here is that one may NOT say that in any given pasuq
the trop is DEFINITELY parsing or cantillation. However, if one first
takes the pasuq and creates a trop based on his understanding, and then
compares it to the actual trop, it is easier to see in which cases the
trop is pointing to a different parsing that one originally thought.

There is no question that the trop many times through its parsing points
to a different meaning than a reading in plain Hebrew would imply. All I
was trying to point out was that there is another function of trop that
does not indicate parsing by meaning.

One particularly egregious example, IMHO, is the normal use of trop
in lists. Since this non-parsing feature in lists is so common, I
called it the nonHeisenberg Uncertainty Priciple, trying to utilize the
physics-based terms, just as Micha did, in an apparently unsuccessful
attempt at levity.

Seth Mandel

-----Original Message-----
From: Micha Berger [mailto:micha at aishdas.org]
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2014 9:55 PM

On Sun, Apr 06, 2014 at 08:51:30PM +0000, Mandel, Seth wrote:
: To wit: the whole system of trop is built on divisions, and
: subdivisions. The classification of trop into Keisarim, M'lakhim,
: Sh'niym, and Shalishim, or whichever names you prefer (since none
: of these terms exist in the early sources), is quite useful for most
: p'suqim and clauses. But it fails when used for a list. Unless a list
: has subcategories, the trop used for the words is arbitrary in the sense
: that it follows rules of assigning trop if the meaning shows no major
: and minor elements.

I think it's simply that trop is after all cantillation. And therefore
serves functions other than aiding in the parsing of sentences.

It's not uncertainty, it's hidden variables. (My apologies to those
who don't get the physics reference. Suffice it to say I'm trying to
be funny.)

----- End forwarded message -----

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

--
Micha Berger             Weeds are flowers too
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