[Mesorah] Goy Gadol? or Gadol Atzum?

[sholom]

Unsure if RGD is exaggerating or not, but, as another data point, I
got exactly 8 of them. (So far) 

On 2014-04-08 14:22, Gershon Dubin
wrote: 

> Ignoring them? I got 20 copies of this one!
> 
> Gershon
>
gershon.dubin at juno.com
> 
> ---------- Original Message ----------
>
From: Micha Berger <micha at aishdas.org>
> To: mesorah at aishdas.org
>
Subject: Re: [Mesorah] Goy Gadol? or Gadol Atzum?
> Date: Tue, 8 Apr
2014 14:21:25 -0400
> 
> It's taking me a while to figure out why the
list server is ignoring
> RSM's posts. So, in the meantime, here is one
from this morning.
> 
> -micha
> 
> ----- Forwarded message from
"Mandel, Seth" <mandels at ou.org> -----
> Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 12:08:42
+0000
> From: "Mandel, Seth" <mandels at ou.org>
> Subject: RE: [Mesorah]
Goy Gadol? or Gadol Atzum?
> To: mesorah at aishdas.org
> CC: Micha Berger
<micha at aishdas.org>
> 
> Which is the larger issue that I was trying
(unsuccessfully) to allude
> to. Trop serves several functions,
primarily parsing and cantillation.
> Since everything requires trop,
sometimes trop is not used to parse/divide
> matters. Such as in most
lists.
> 
> People have an unfortunate tendency to want black and white
ideas, black
> and white clothes, and black and white cookies. I have
been saying for
> years something I learned from RYBS but only realized
how all-encompassing
> it was years later: in applying Torah to the
human world, usually nothing
> is black and white, but shades of grey.
It requires someone of real
> stature, something most of us, including
rabbis, cannot reach, to analyze
> through the nuances and decide what
is the best way, understanding that
> in most cases there is no perfect
solution. Since the rules of Hebrew,
> including trop, are part of
Torah, how could anyone think that they do
> not follow the scheme of
how the Torah operates?
> 
> The corollary here is that one may NOT say
that in any given pasuq
> the trop is DEFINITELY parsing or
cantillation. However, if one first
> takes the pasuq and creates a trop
based on his understanding, and then
> compares it to the actual trop,
it is easier to see in which cases the
> trop is pointing to a different
parsing that one originally thought.
> 
> There is no question that the
trop many times through its parsing points
> to a different meaning than
a reading in plain Hebrew would imply. All I
> was trying to point out
was that there is another function of trop that
> does not indicate
parsing by meaning.
> 
> One particularly egregious example, IMHO, is
the normal use of trop
> in lists. Since this non-parsing feature in
lists is so common, I
> called it the nonHeisenberg Uncertainty
Priciple, trying to utilize the
> physics-based terms, just as Micha
did, in an apparently unsuccessful
> attempt at levity.
> 
> Seth
Mandel
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Micha Berger
[mailto:micha at aishdas.org] 
> Sent: Monday, April 07, 2014 9:55 PM
> 
>
On Sun, Apr 06, 2014 at 08:51:30PM +0000, Mandel, Seth wrote:
> : To
wit: the whole system of trop is built on divisions, and
> :
subdivisions. The classification of trop into Keisarim, M'lakhim,
> :
Sh'niym, and Shalishim, or whichever names you prefer (since none
> : of
these terms exist in the early sources), is quite useful for most
> :
p'suqim and clauses. But it fails when used for a list. Unless a list
>
: has subcategories, the trop used for the words is arbitrary in the
sense
> : that it follows rules of assigning trop if the meaning shows
no major
> : and minor elements.
> 
> I think it's simply that trop is
after all cantillation. And therefore
> serves functions other than
aiding in the parsing of sentences.
> 
> It's not uncertainty, it's
hidden variables. (My apologies to those
> who don't get the physics
reference. Suffice it to say I'm trying to
> be funny.)
> 
> ----- End
forwarded message -----
> 
> Tir'u baTov!
> -Micha
> 
> -- 
> Micha
Berger Weeds are flowers too
> micha at aishdas.org once you get to know
them.
> http://www.aishdas.org - Eeyore ("Winnie-the-Pooh" by AA
Milne)
> Fax: (270) 514-1507
>
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