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<p>Unsure if RGD is exaggerating or not, but, as another data point, I got exactly 8 of them. (So far)</p>
<p>On 2014-04-08 14:22, Gershon Dubin wrote:</p>
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<div>Ignoring them? I got 20 copies of this one!<br /><br />Gershon<br />gershon.dubin@juno.com<br /><br />---------- Original Message ----------<br />From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org><br />To: mesorah@aishdas.org<br />Subject: Re: [Mesorah] Goy Gadol? or Gadol Atzum?<br />Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 14:21:25 -0400<br /><br />It's taking me a while to figure out why the list server is ignoring<br />RSM's posts. So, in the meantime, here is one from this morning.<br /><br />-micha<br /><br />----- Forwarded message from "Mandel, Seth" <mandels@ou.org> -----<br />Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 12:08:42 +0000<br />From: "Mandel, Seth" <mandels@ou.org><br />Subject: RE: [Mesorah] Goy Gadol? or Gadol Atzum?<br />To: mesorah@aishdas.org<br />CC: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org><br /><br />Which is the larger issue that I was trying (unsuccessfully) to allude<br />to. Trop serves several functions, primarily parsing and cantillation.<br />Since everything requires trop, sometimes trop is not used to parse/divide<br />matters. Such as in most lists.<br /><br />People have an unfortunate tendency to want black and white ideas, black<br />and white clothes, and black and white cookies. I have been saying for<br />years something I learned from RYBS but only realized how all-encompassing<br />it was years later: in applying Torah to the human world, usually nothing<br />is black and white, but shades of grey. It requires someone of real<br />stature, something most of us, including rabbis, cannot reach, to analyze<br />through the nuances and decide what is the best way, understanding that<br />in most cases there is no perfect solution. Since the rules of Hebrew,<br />including trop, are part of Torah, how could anyone think that they do<br />not follow the scheme of how the Torah operates?<br /><br />The corollary here is that one may NOT say that in any given pasuq<br />the trop is DEFINITELY parsing or cantillation. However, if one first<br />takes the pasuq and creates a trop based on his understanding, and then<br />compares it to the actual trop, it is easier to see in which cases the<br />trop is pointing to a different parsing that one originally thought.<br /><br />There is no question that the trop many times through its parsing points<br />to a different meaning than a reading in plain Hebrew would imply. All I<br />was trying to point out was that there is another function of trop that<br />does not indicate parsing by meaning.<br /><br />One particularly egregious example, IMHO, is the normal use of trop<br />in lists. Since this non-parsing feature in lists is so common, I<br />called it the nonHeisenberg Uncertainty Priciple, trying to utilize the<br />physics-based terms, just as Micha did, in an apparently unsuccessful<br />attempt at levity.<br /><br />Seth Mandel<br /><br />-----Original Message-----<br />From: Micha Berger [mailto:micha@aishdas.org] <br />Sent: Monday, April 07, 2014 9:55 PM<br /><br />On Sun, Apr 06, 2014 at 08:51:30PM +0000, Mandel, Seth wrote:<br />: To wit: the whole system of trop is built on divisions, and<br />: subdivisions. The classification of trop into Keisarim, M'lakhim,<br />: Sh'niym, and Shalishim, or whichever names you prefer (since none<br />: of these terms exist in the early sources), is quite useful for most<br />: p'suqim and clauses. But it fails when used for a list. Unless a list<br />: has subcategories, the trop used for the words is arbitrary in the sense<br />: that it follows rules of assigning trop if the meaning shows no major<br />: and minor elements.<br /><br />I think it's simply that trop is after all cantillation. And therefore<br />serves functions other than aiding in the parsing of sentences.<br /><br />It's not uncertainty, it's hidden variables. (My apologies to those<br />who don't get the physics reference. Suffice it to say I'm trying to<br />be funny.)<br /><br /><br />----- End forwarded message -----<br /><br />Tir'u baTov!<br />-Micha<br /><br />-- <br />Micha Berger Weeds are flowers too<br />micha@aishdas.org once you get to know them.<br />http://www.aishdas.org - Eeyore ("Winnie-the-Pooh" by AA Milne)<br />Fax: (270) 514-1507<br />_______________________________________________<br />Mesorah mailing list<br />Mesorah@lists.aishdas.org<br />http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/mesorah-aishdas.org</div>
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