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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Goudy Old Style","serif";color:#1F497D">My apologies for repetitions. My first post on the matter, sent on Sunday, did not appear on Mesorah until I asked Micha what had happened. My second post
has still not appeared. So I asked Micha to make sure my third post was sent out, and then it came out in multiple copies.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Goudy Old Style","serif";color:#1F497D">I appreciate your understanding.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Goudy Old Style","serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Goudy Old Style","serif";color:black">Rabbi Dr. Seth Mandel<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Goudy Old Style","serif";color:black">Rabbinic Coordinator<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Goudy Old Style","serif";color:black">The Orthodox Union<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Goudy Old Style","serif";color:black">11 Broadway, New York, NY 10004<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#993366">(</span></b><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#993366">Voice (212) 613-8330</span></b><b><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Wingdings 2";color:#993366">
7</span></b><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#993366"> Fax (212) 613-0718 </span></b><b><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#993366">*</span></b><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:#993366">
e-mail </span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a href="mailto:mandels@ou.org"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">mandels@ou.org</span></b></a></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#993366"><img border="0" width="158" height="49" id="Picture_x0020_1" src="cid:image001.jpg@01CF5337.7D0C79B0" alt="cid:image001.jpg@01C73F0F.8A8D8BE0"></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#993366">Visit our new
</span></i></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a href="blocked::blocked::http://www.OUDirect.org" title="blocked::http://www.OUDirect.org
http://www.oudirect.org/"><b><i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#993366">www.OUDirect.org</span></i></b></a></span><b><i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#993366">
to manage YOUR account</span></i></b><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#993366"> </span></b><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Bradley Hand ITC";color:#993366"> </span></b><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#993366"> </span></b><b><span style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Vladimir Script";color:#993366"><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> mesorah-bounces@lists.aishdas.org [mailto:mesorah-bounces@lists.aishdas.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>sholom<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, April 08, 2014 2:27 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> mesorah@lists.aishdas.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Mesorah] Goy Gadol? or Gadol Atzum?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Unsure if RGD is exaggerating or not, but, as another data point, I got exactly 8 of them. (So far)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">On 2014-04-08 14:22, Gershon Dubin wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"">Ignoring them? I got 20 copies of this one!<br>
<br>
Gershon<br>
<a href="mailto:gershon.dubin@juno.com">gershon.dubin@juno.com</a><br>
<br>
---------- Original Message ----------<br>
From: Micha Berger <<a href="mailto:micha@aishdas.org">micha@aishdas.org</a>><br>
To: <a href="mailto:mesorah@aishdas.org">mesorah@aishdas.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Mesorah] Goy Gadol? or Gadol Atzum?<br>
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 14:21:25 -0400<br>
<br>
It's taking me a while to figure out why the list server is ignoring<br>
RSM's posts. So, in the meantime, here is one from this morning.<br>
<br>
-micha<br>
<br>
----- Forwarded message from "Mandel, Seth" <<a href="mailto:mandels@ou.org">mandels@ou.org</a>> -----<br>
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 12:08:42 +0000<br>
From: "Mandel, Seth" <<a href="mailto:mandels@ou.org">mandels@ou.org</a>><br>
Subject: RE: [Mesorah] Goy Gadol? or Gadol Atzum?<br>
To: <a href="mailto:mesorah@aishdas.org">mesorah@aishdas.org</a><br>
CC: Micha Berger <<a href="mailto:micha@aishdas.org">micha@aishdas.org</a>><br>
<br>
Which is the larger issue that I was trying (unsuccessfully) to allude<br>
to. Trop serves several functions, primarily parsing and cantillation.<br>
Since everything requires trop, sometimes trop is not used to parse/divide<br>
matters. Such as in most lists.<br>
<br>
People have an unfortunate tendency to want black and white ideas, black<br>
and white clothes, and black and white cookies. I have been saying for<br>
years something I learned from RYBS but only realized how all-encompassing<br>
it was years later: in applying Torah to the human world, usually nothing<br>
is black and white, but shades of grey. It requires someone of real<br>
stature, something most of us, including rabbis, cannot reach, to analyze<br>
through the nuances and decide what is the best way, understanding that<br>
in most cases there is no perfect solution. Since the rules of Hebrew,<br>
including trop, are part of Torah, how could anyone think that they do<br>
not follow the scheme of how the Torah operates?<br>
<br>
The corollary here is that one may NOT say that in any given pasuq<br>
the trop is DEFINITELY parsing or cantillation. However, if one first<br>
takes the pasuq and creates a trop based on his understanding, and then<br>
compares it to the actual trop, it is easier to see in which cases the<br>
trop is pointing to a different parsing that one originally thought.<br>
<br>
There is no question that the trop many times through its parsing points<br>
to a different meaning than a reading in plain Hebrew would imply. All I<br>
was trying to point out was that there is another function of trop that<br>
does not indicate parsing by meaning.<br>
<br>
One particularly egregious example, IMHO, is the normal use of trop<br>
in lists. Since this non-parsing feature in lists is so common, I<br>
called it the nonHeisenberg Uncertainty Priciple, trying to utilize the<br>
physics-based terms, just as Micha did, in an apparently unsuccessful<br>
attempt at levity.<br>
<br>
Seth Mandel<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Micha Berger [<a href="mailto:micha@aishdas.org">mailto:micha@aishdas.org</a>]
<br>
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2014 9:55 PM<br>
<br>
On Sun, Apr 06, 2014 at 08:51:30PM +0000, Mandel, Seth wrote:<br>
: To wit: the whole system of trop is built on divisions, and<br>
: subdivisions. The classification of trop into Keisarim, M'lakhim,<br>
: Sh'niym, and Shalishim, or whichever names you prefer (since none<br>
: of these terms exist in the early sources), is quite useful for most<br>
: p'suqim and clauses. But it fails when used for a list. Unless a list<br>
: has subcategories, the trop used for the words is arbitrary in the sense<br>
: that it follows rules of assigning trop if the meaning shows no major<br>
: and minor elements.<br>
<br>
I think it's simply that trop is after all cantillation. And therefore<br>
serves functions other than aiding in the parsing of sentences.<br>
<br>
It's not uncertainty, it's hidden variables. (My apologies to those<br>
who don't get the physics reference. Suffice it to say I'm trying to<br>
be funny.)<br>
<br>
<br>
----- End forwarded message -----<br>
<br>
Tir'u baTov!<br>
-Micha<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Micha Berger Weeds are flowers too<br>
<a href="mailto:micha@aishdas.org">micha@aishdas.org</a> once you get to know them.<br>
<a href="http://www.aishdas.org">http://www.aishdas.org</a> - Eeyore ("Winnie-the-Pooh" by AA Milne)<br>
Fax: (270) 514-1507<br>
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