[Mesorah] Chataf Patach

[Michael Poppers]

I'm not sure if RDB answered RGD's Q (whether the pronunciation of a 
chataf depends on a machloqes between ben Asheir and ben Naftali), esp. as 
he didn't note any disagreement with "ben Asher in Dikdukei Hat'amim 
states...."  I don't think the following data point will answer it, 
either, but listmembers may find it interesting: IIUC*, R'YReisman 
mentioned this past motzoei Shabbos that the niqud for the name of the bas 
Yishmaeil whom Eisav married as per 1-28:9 (patach for mem, 
chataf[-patach] for ches vs. qamatz-qaton for mem, chataf[-qamatz] for 
ches) is a machloqes between ben Asheir and ben Naftali (he then suggested 
an etymological rationale for either position, with the latter [or is it 
the former? My MG's Targum Yonasan listed the name with a patach...] based 
on Yonasan ben Uziel's commentary).

All the best from Michael

____
*) Es chataway ani mazkir: due to important business, I came a few min.s 
late to the room in our community hosting the via-Internet broadcast of 
the shiur, and RYR was in the middle of explaining this point when I found 
a seat....



D&E-H Bannett <dbnet at zahav.net.il> 
Sent by: mesorah-bounces at lists.aishdas.org
11/25/2008 01:57 PM



To
Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin at juno.com>
cc
mesorah at lists.aishdas.org
Subject
Re: [Mesorah] Chataf Patach






ben Asher in Dikdukei Hat'amim states that the use of the 
chataf is optional (kirtzon hasofrim).  As it does not 
change the pronunciation, the sofer or m'naked who thinks it 
will help avoiding elision making the sh'va into a sh'va 
nach will bother to add the patach or kamatz alongside the 
sh'va.  Those who think it not important will omit.

The m'naked of the Keter ms. put in the chatafim.  The 
m'naked of  ms.Leningrad did not (except the groniot where 
mispronunciation is more likely).  Both mss. are considered 
by the experts to be ben Asher style and not ben Naftali.

In so called good chumashim nowadays, Koren,Roedelheim, and 
Bar-Ilan Keter have the chatafim.  Breuer does not.

I've always had the feeling that Breuer's decision was 
influenced by his Yekke background.  In Frankfurt, as just 
noted in a posting re: BorAkhu, the Yekkes made the chataf 
patach into a strong patach sound even more than other 
groups. Listen to hallAluyah yimchA'u khaf borAkhu etc. 
Breuer heard this in his youth before he learned that the 
chataf is nothing more than a warning not to forget the shva 
na'. He did not want to perpetuate this pronunciation and 
considered it best to avoid chatafim except where everyone 
had them, the groniot.

k"t'

David

An aside to R' Gershon: How is your father, my old friend 
Ovadia.  He has been silent on the net for a long time.  In 
our age group, most of us are running down a bit. I hope he 
is okay. Whenever my wife notices your name in a posting, 
she asks about him. We old-timers feel that our teen-age 
friends are close friends forever even if we are thousands 
of miles apart. 

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