[Mesorah] Cholov Yisroel or Chaleiv Yisroel?

[Seth Mandel]

Methinketh that R DB accurately represented my position.  It is as useless 
to research the Hebrew grammatical basis of a borrowed term in English as it 
would be to try to determine the correctine Latin grammatical form of an 
English borrowing from French.  Yes, the French word for city is from Latin 
civitas, but English did not borrow it from the Latin, but from French cite. 
  All of your ratiocinations might have some bearing if English speakers had 
borrowed the term cholov yisroel from Hebrew or from Rashi.  They did not.  
They borrowed it from Yiddish speakers.  V'ho ra'yo: there is no Hebrew word 
akum, as R DB alluded to.  There is no Hebrew word shlita.  These are 
written abbreviations in Hebrew, and represent the Hebrew words that were 
said.  Yiddish speakers got into the habit of pronouncing abbreviations, 
such as akum, and Lubavitchers started using shlita as a word, and that 
spread.
The term' cholov yisroel, however pronounced, is not an original Hebrew 
term.  Chazal, whom, one might assume, knew the real Hebrew terms on 
halakhic subjects, used the word "cholov shechalovo goy" (AZ 2:6).  They 
talked about g'vinos hagoyim or g'vinas hagoyim, but not cholov of goyim.  
The Rambam, who also knew Hebrew, wrote "cholov hanimtzo b'yad goy" (M'A 
3:13) and "cholov shechalovuhu" (3:15).  They did not use the term chXlXv 
goy, which would mean there was some sort of g'zerah on milk belonging to a 
goy, which is not the case.  And note that Chazal did not use the term aqu'm 
to refer to regular goyim, nor does the Rambam.  'Oved kokhavim was used to 
refer to star worshipers or people who were clearly 'ovdei 'avodo zoro, not 
stam goyim.  'aku'm (the abbreviation, since the only word pronounced akum 
in Hebrew means crooked) referring to general goyim was an invention of the 
goyim who were censors.  The use of the term pronounced 'akum was therefore 
never a Hebrew use at all, but developed in Europe several generations after 
the word goyim had been mostly switched to the abbreviation 'QWM by the 
censors in printed works.  The Tur and the SA in ms. both used the terms 
cholov shechalovo goy, but in printed editions of the SA the word goy has 
been switched to 'oved kokhavim, and then abbreviated 'QWM by later 
acharonim.
In summary, the Hebrew term spelled HLB 'QWM is a development in Europe 
during the period of the Acharonim, both in the choice of words and the use 
of 'QWM to refer to a Gentile.
The Ashkenaz Acharonim spoke Yiddish.
Therefore, HLB 'QWM was pronounced as a Yiddish speaker would, cholov akum.
English borrowed from Yiddish speakers, the term as pronounced by Yiddish 
speakers.
Were one to wish to use the Hebrew term, it would be cholov shechalovo goy.  
Unless you know Hebrew better than Chazal (oops, I mean chachamenu zikhronom 
livrokho).


>From: "kennethgmiller at juno.com" <kennethgmiller at juno.com>
>To: mesorah at aishdas.org
>Subject: Re: [Mesorah] Cholov Yisroel or Chaleiv Yisroel?
>Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 19:55:03 GMT
>
>David Bannett wrote:
> > R' Seth would tell us that cholov okum and cholov
> > hacompanies are perfectly fine expressions in Yiddish but,
> > of course, not in Hebrew. Rashi spoke French, not Yiddish.
> > Therefore, he knew how to say things in Hebrew.
>
>Yes, exactly. We're talking about a Hebrew phrase. Not a Yiddish phrase. 
>Nor, as someone suggested to me off-list, a Yinglish phrase. It is a phrase 
>of the Rabbinic Hebrew language, easily found in the relevant sections of 
>Yoreh Deah.
>
>Except... except... except I can't find it!
>
>First is the obvious problem that without vowels, chalav and chaleiv are 
>spelled the same. But more than that, in my quick glance through Yoreh Deah 
>115 and Chochmas Adam 67, I was not able to find the phrases "Chal_v 
>Yisrael" or "Chal_v Akum". I only see things like "chalav SHEL akum" or 
>other long descriptive terms. This would add even more credence to the idea 
>that the two-word phrases are Yinglish, and need not conform to rules of 
>Hebrew.
>
>Here's another data point which might be helpful: Has anyone ever seen the 
>phrase "Chalav Yisrael" (in any alphabet) on a food which was NOT marketed 
>to the Yiddish or English speaking communities? (For example, are there any 
>kosher dairy foods produced in France which are not exported?)
>
>Akiva Miller
>
>_______________________________________________
>Mesorah mailing list
>Mesorah at lists.aishdas.org
>http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/mesorah-aishdas.org

_________________________________________________________________
Share your special parenting moments! 
http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM&loc=us