[Avodah] Kalah NaAh VeChasudah - Midvar Sheker

[Rabbi Meir G. Rabi]

R Micha, I am still unsure of your meaning
Is it relevant that YaAkov is arranging a self-serving deception,
he WANTS his father to reach the wrong conclusion
in order to prevent Eisav getting the Beracha and in order to gain the
Beracha for himself?

Is that not significantly different from Kalah NaAh VeChasudah where the
intent is to make someone happy and to promote a harmonious relationship?

Keitzad Merakdin - is that permitted by the Shadchan who stands to increase
the size of his/her payment?
&&&&&&

Is GnDaAs an Issur DeOraysa?
I think not, but MiSheker is DeOraysa, no?
Does this discussion also not intersect with Lifnei Iveir?
&&&&&

1- Sheqer is a distortion of facts, while geneivas da'as is manipulating
   somoene to aid your relationship.
2- Sheqer can only be via obvert communication, while G"D would include
   behaving toward them in a misleading way.

 As for suggesting that YaAkov didn't overtly lie - lets put that to the
test; if you bought a house and were deceived by this type of a ruse, would
you say it was a MeKach TaUs? I suspect most people would, dont you agree?
 There is no parallel to a deception that hurts no-one and seeks to promote
harmony.

As for the brothers crude and truly incredible [as in being most unlikely
to be believed] lie that YaAkov instructed that Yosef forgive the sin of
his brothers, that was truly a self-serving deception and an outright lie -
may a Torah institution deceive in order to get more money to teach more
Toirah?

I am unsure why you reference the Gemara BM 87a, Devei R Yishmael taught -
Gadol HaShalom ShaAfilu HKBH Shina Bo Was there something vague that you
were trying to clarify?

BTW can anyone suggest why the word AFILU is used and what it means
EVEN HKBH 'distorted' in order to promote peace
implying that we most certainly ought to 'distort' in order to promote
peace.
How is that a KVeChomer?

Peripherally, the Gemara does NOT note that Sara became young again as in
capable of bearing children, as Chazal note she became a Niddah and AAvinu
did therefore not serve the bread,
rather, the Gemara focuses on the fact that she became beautiful, her
wrinkles disappeared and her skin was rejuvenated.
IOWords, she became physically attractive and therefore seems to be
reflecting,
whats the point in me being beautiful again if my master is too old?
Besides, AAvinu did not look at Sara, "I just happened to see you and
noticed that you are a beautiful woman and the Egyptians will kill me in
order to enjoy your beauty"

We might also ask, what was AAvinu thinking when HKBH told this white lie,
she said she is too old, when AAvinu knew she had rejuvenated and became
impure, and therefore no pita for the meal?
&&&&&&&&

The Mordechai MKatan #933 clearly says one must not deceive, his focus is
that one ought not break bad news bluntly but in a roundabout manner,
How is my father? is answered MY father, or Pelonis father is ok.

I think the reference to Chareidim is 12:26,
he notes that it is a Mitzvah, probably meaning a good thing rather than
one of the Taryag or even a DeRabbanan
&&&&&&&

Making a distinction between in the Beis Din or outside the BD
is not really convincing
Besides, MdVShTirchak looks to be a DeOraysa
whereas GnDaAs seems to be at the most a Derabannan.

I have yet to look more carefully at your reference to Rabbeinu Yonah


Best,

Meir G. Rabi

0423 207 837
+61 423 207 837


On Sun, Dec 29, 2024 at 9:43 PM Micha Berger <micha at aishdas.org> wrote:

> Rather than reply to RMGR directly, I was going to refer him to my
> source, R Yitzchak Berowitz's Center for Jewish Values and their mar'eh
> meqomos booklets titled "Genveivas Da'as" and "Midevar Sheqer Tirchaq",
> respectively. But it appears that since I was in a chubaurah learning
> these sheets, all the booklets were bound into prined volumes and taken
> offline.
>
> What I can find while all my property is in a container was someone
> from R Melameid, who summarizes (Liquim vol 2, 3:1, in "Hi' Geneivas
> Daas) that there are two differences between these issurim:
>
> 1- Sheqer is a distortion of facts, while geneivas da'as is manipulating
>    somoene to aid your relationship.
> 2- Sheqer can only be via obvert communication, while G"D would include
>    behaving toward them in a misleading way.
>
> Neither of these stuck in my memory from the CJV mar'eh meqomos sheets.
>
> Most of the examples I gave were from the gemara, with the exception
> of the Medrash explaining how, with the use of a comma, Yaaqov didn't
> overly lie. Which gives us an interesting point of contrast: in the
> case of Sarah's laughter, Hashem told half the truth. At the end of
> Bereishis, the brothers tell Yoseif an outright fabrication. (Given
> Chazal's assumption that Yaaqov didn't actually say such a thing in an
> incident that isn't in the chumash.)
>
> It is BM 87a, not me, that talks about leshanos es ha'emes mipenei
> darkei Shalom but not to outright lie (if possible to achieve shalom
> that way). As in the machloqes about keitzad meraqdin.
>
> And is consistent with the aforementioned medras about Yaaqov, even if
> there the primary benficiary of the peace was Yaaqov himself, and not
> a third party.
>
> > R Micha also posted - there are 2 issurim.
> > geneivas da'as - Leaving out elements of the truth, or presenting the
> truth
> > in a manner you know will be misunderstood.
> > midevar sheqer tirchaq - since you knew what you meant and it was true.
> >
> > Please expand upon these because I do not properly understand; re Midvar
> > Shekker Tirchak - the Halacha, based on the Gemara Shavuos 31a, prohibits
> > presenting oneself to intimidate a defendant thereby pushing him to admit
> > the truth...
>
> Sources that invoke midevar sheqer tirchaq in situations outside of court
> or even anyone getting harmed altogether:
> - Ritva, Kesuvos 17a "yashbichenu"
> - Mordechai, end of MQ #933
> - Chareidim ch. 4 mitzvah 26
>
> - And maybe Rabbeinu Yonah, although Shaarei Tehuvah could be going
>   lifinim mishuras hadin -- but see shaar 3, #178-186. He has a very
>   long discussion of lies that aren't about harm.
>
> It would seem that we learn things about court from the issur, but it
> isn't necessarily so that the issur is limited to those applications.
>
> An enlightening and enjoyable Chanukah!
> -Micha
>
> --
> Micha Berger                 "I think, therefore I am." - Renne Descartes
> http://www.aishdas.org/asp   "I am thought about, therefore I am -
> Author: Widen Your Tent      my existence depends upon the thought of a
> - https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF    Supreme Being Who thinks me." - R' SR Hirsch
>
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