[Avodah] Ashkenazic Pronounciation

[Micha Berger]

On Thu, Apr 20, 2023 at 07:34:26PM -0400, Meir Shinnar via Avodah wrote:
> > Havarah Yisraelit (as opposed to real Sepharadi accents) is not a minhag.
> > How can you simply use it for tefillah, and to be yotzei a deOraisa,
> > no less!

This is an important paragraph, and I fear R Dr Shinnar missed it when
replying.

...
>> An extreme example:
>> To Ashknazi mesorah, the way Israelis pronounce Sheim Adnus would
>> translate to "My Lords". The sheim itself has a qamatz under the nun,
>> and thus should not be pronounced the same as the plural.

> WADR, this is highly problematic.

> RAYK was complaining about the change in minhag -- not that one was not
> yotze. However, he was talking at a time when Havana yisraelit (abazit)
> was just beginning...

> I know of no one who argues, for example, that Sefardim are not yotze when
> they say Shem adnus with a patach. Wrt changing pronounciation -- we know
> rav Natan Adler (rv of hatam Sofer) changed to Havana sefaradi.

His objection was that it was invented, and is not a minhag. Age didn't
get mention in his teshuvah.

This is what makes it different than an Ashkenazi deciding that havarah
Sepharadi is more appropriate. As I said, "Havarah Yisraelit ... is not
a minhag."

My extreme example of a question is raised by changing havaros was ony to
point out that there are questions to be addressed. Not that one ACTUAL
minhag is better than another. Aside from the normal minhag issues -- does
your locale have a minhag hamaqom, do you need to be matir neder, etc...?

But again, a havarah invented by an Ashkenazi who went to the Mughrab
and was enthralled by the sound of their Hebrew because it sounds less
galuti to him isn't a minhag.

(Just as what the Maskilim did to Nusach Ashkenaz with their
hyper-corrections also shouldn't be considered minhag. No matter how
much they became the norm and enshrined in ArtScroll and Koren.)

> Furthermore, the historical assumption about Ashkenazic pronunciation, and
> especially of the patch/kamatz distinction -- Micha's extreme example -- is
> problematic. Indeed, while recent minhag Ashkenazi did distinguish between
> patach and kamatz, ancient minhag Ashkenazi did not
> Beside the piyutim of Ashkenaz, that routinely rhymed patach with kamatz, we
> have clear evidence that gdole Ashkenaz did not distinguish

> Eg, Rashi...

R Dr Seth Mandel (PhD Semitic Languages) disagrees. E.g.
https://jewishaction.com/religion/jewish-culture/language/real-story-hebrew-pronunciation/
(because I can't understand the journals). He traces these differences
to the differences reflected by the different systems of vowel notation.
And thus the people who would become Ashkenazim were pronouncing a qamatz
differently than a patach before they even converged on Ashkenaz.

Unfortunately, aside from being in aveilus for a son, RMS himself isn't
in good health. He hasn't been answering emails. (Nor does he have hours
for nichum aveilim.) So, I can't ask.

Rashi talks about segol as a "patach qatan" and a tzeirei as a "qamatz
qatan". Again, the implication is that the source of his nomeclature
heard them as distinct vowel sounds.

And it shows that few of his vowel names match ours.

> There is a tshuva by rev tzvi pesach frank who was asked if a litvak was
> yotze kriat megilla by a Galizianer, and he answered shelo gara milashon
> shebadu chachamim. Cute answer. However, I would suggest that, especially
> when communities are close together, we should accept different
> pronounciations -- even if we do not choose to use them. We need to widen
> our tent....

Yes. When the alternatives are real shitos.

BTW, in the above-linked articles RSM repeats the claim that part
of the motive behind inventing Havarah Yisraelit isn't just that it's
"galuti", but that "They felt that the Ashkenazic pronunciation was tied
to European Judaism and religious tradition, which they, for the most
part, were rejecting."

Which is certainly not grounds for assuming the resulting practice
is valid for qiyum hamitzvos. But the same it true if we stick to my
observation that it's a pragmatic invention, and not the evolved living
expression of an observant community -- i.e. minhag.`

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Today is the 35th day, which is
http://www.aishdas.org/asp   5 weeks in/toward the omer.
Author: Widen Your Tent      Malchus sheb'Hod: What is soul-like about
- https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF                submission, and how is it glorious?