[Avodah] Ashkenazic Pronounciation

[Meir Shinnar]

> On May 11, 2023, at 5:17 PM, Micha Berger <micha at aishdas.org> wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Apr 20, 2023 at 07:34:26PM -0400, Meir Shinnar via Avodah wrote:
>>> Havarah Yisraelit (as opposed to real Sepharadi accents) is not a minhag.
>>> How can you simply use it for tefillah, and to be yotzei a deOraisa,
>>> no less!
> 
> This is an important paragraph, and I fear R Dr Shinnar missed it when
> replying.
> 




> ...
>>> An extreme example:
>>> To Ashknazi mesorah, the way Israelis pronounce Sheim Adnus would
>>> translate to "My Lords". The sheim itself has a qamatz under the nun,
>>> and thus should not be pronounced the same as the plural.
> 
>> WADR, this is highly problematic.
> 
>> RAYK was complaining about the change in minhag -- not that one was not
>> yotze. However, he was talking at a time when Havana yisraelit (abazit)
>> was just beginning...
> 
>> I know of no one who argues, for example, that Sefardim are not yotze when
>> they say Shem adnus with a patach. Wrt changing pronounciation -- we know
>> rav Natan Adler (rv of hatam Sofer) changed to Havana sefaradi.
> 
> His objection was that it was invented, and is not a minhag. Age didn't
> get mention in his teshuvah.

Does the questionable original lineage matter?  If so, you should be arguing that (to cite an example from RSM’s article you cite) you should be objecting to yeshivish Hebrew too

It is not as if they invented new, unheard of sounds for either consonants or vowels.  They combined aspects of both sefardic and ashkenazic pronunciations.  

I would add that the article by RSM cites RYE Henkin zt”l.  In contradistinction to RSM’s position on the validity of all three major traditions, Rav Henkin holds that the failure of Ashkenaz to distinguish some consonants means it is objectively wrong, and that one SHOULD change pronunciation from Ashkenazic to Sephardi pronunciation of consonants.  He is not sure about vowels - so does not want to change vowels - but has no problem changing “minhag” of pronunciation - to a minhag that, while I understand the theoretical basis, TTBOMK, never existed….
- and does not require to be mattir neder about abandoning the minhag Avot.  

So what is current Israeli pronunciation - it is standard sefardic pronunciation - except for lack of a separate het or ayin.  It is the pronunciation of an Ashkenazi trying to pronounce sefardic….(and many Israelis do still make some distinction for het and yin). As you agree that there is no problem switching to sefardi pronunciation, there is now a problem because one can’tmake het and yin, which one never could????

Can you find any source predating zionism about any issues of people changing pronounciation?   Notion that there is some minhag Avot about pronunciation?  
Again, much of the response was problems with people changing pronounciation to fit in with a nonreligious community - not the intrinsic issue of using it.  At the time of Eliezer Ben Yehudah and RAYK, using abazit was viewed as a firstvstep off the derech.  Today, abazit is the minhag of many kehillot and ir v’em beyisrael - regardless of its history.   (and for people who grew up speaking abazit in a community that speaks abazit- it is a far greater change in minhag to change to standard ashkenazi…than to keep their giros dyankuta)).  Trying to refight the fights of the early 20th century does nothing for ahavat hashem, yirat hashem,or avodat hashem



WRT historical Ashkenaz
.

I would defer t oRSM.  However, the issue is not merely the use of different terminology for the vowels - - but that the piyutim that rhyme patachand kamatz (and halachic tshuvot - eg, not saying zochrenu lachayim on yomim noraim)  clearly imply that they viewed patach and kamatz as, even if not fully identical, they were far closer than current Ashkenazi. Furthermore, there is evidence that they did distinguish het and ayin in rashes time.  


…..
Meir Shinnar