[Avodah] Ashkenazic Pronounciation

[Meir Shinnar]

On Mon, Apr 17, 2023 at 09:10:52PM +0000, Joseph Kaplan wrote to Areivim:
>> More seriously, I was surprised at the accent of the
>> ba'al tefillah repeating the amidah prior to birchat kohanim. I would
>> have thought that at this type of gathering at the Kotel, the ba'al
>> tefillah would have sounded like someone who lives in Israel in 2023
>> and not Europe of the previous century.

> Micha Berger

> Halachically, this is more correct, assuming most of the kohanim were
> descendents of Jews who lived in Europe of the previous century.

> Havarah Yisraelit (as opposed to real Sepharadi accents) is not a minhag.
> How can you simply use it for tefillah, and to be yotzei a deOraisa,
> no less!

> When R Kook got the question about how to say Qeri'as Shema or read
> the Torah, he insisted that if they can do so consistently they should
> use their traditional East European havarah. As RAYK himself did. He
> did grant that someone who is so used to Havarah Yisraelit that they
> cannot be consistent if they tried to speak Ashknuzis are better off
> using consistent Yisraelit. BUT, they should practice to try to be able
> in the future.

> An extreme example:
> To Ashknazi mesorah, the way Israelis pronounce Sheim Adnus would
> translate to "My Lords". The sheim itself has a qamatz under the nun,
> and thus should not be pronounced the same as the plural.

> (I do wonder about that first "echad", where lengthening the dalet isn't
> possible in Ashknazis. Nor in Israeli, but I wonder if RAYK would prefer
> Ashkenazis over the Rambam's "sound like a bee" with a long /dh/ as in
> "this". Or, being careful to say "ul'avdo bekhol-levavkhem" with an ayin,
> not an alef -- to serve Him, not to eradicate. But now we are deep in
> Avodah territory.)

WADR, this is highly problematic.

RAYK was complaining about the change in minhag -- not that one was not
yotze. However, he was talking at a time when Havana yisraelit (abazit)
was just beginning, and most Ashkenazim, even who used Havana yisraelit,
grew up with Ashkenazis or at least with people who spoke Ashkenazis. When
today, most Israelis and Americans, grew up with Havana yisraelit, the
issues are very different -- and frequently represents more politics
(antizioni) flavored as Halacha.

I know of no one who argues, for example, that Sefardim are not yotze when
they say Shem adnus with a patach. Wrt changing pronounciation -- we know
rav Natan Adler (rv of hatam Sofer) changed to Havana sefaradi.

Furthermore, the historical assumption about Ashkenazic pronunciation, and
especially of the patch/kamatz distinction -- Micha's extreme example -- is
problematic. Indeed, while recent minhag Ashkenazi did distinguish between
patach and kamatz, ancient minhag Ashkenazi did not
Beside the piyutim of Ashkenaz, that routinely rhymed patach with kamatz, we
have clear evidence that gdole Ashkenaz did not distinguish

Eg, Rashi. About the echad in shma -- says (brachot 13b) uvildvad shelo
yacht ofbehet -- eg -- read it with a hataf patach. See also rashi breshit
14:14, that heh at the end is instead of a lamed at the beginning -- but not
instead of a lamed with a patach -- and the lamed infant is with with a
kamazt (lahar with two kamatzim)

See also ketubot 69:2 -- calling a patach when he means a kamatz

Rav Asher Milunil sefer haminhagot, in dsicudssing birchat hamotzi. And why
one says hamotzi rather than motzai -- says not to confuse with the mem of
haolam. And in discussing the difference between that and lechem min, calls
the kamatz in olam a patach, and sego under lechem a there.

Maharam mirotenburg did not distinguish -- eg, his known tshuva that in assert
meme tshuva we do not say zochrenu lachaim (with a patach) so it doesn't
sound la (with a kamaz) la haim. If he distinguished between kamatz and
patach -- not n issue.

Rash and Tur also did not distinguish.as well as rev Yehuda hahasid.

We have from 18th century Prague that they read a kamtz almost like a
patach, until hadashim mekarov ba'u and said a kamatz with a narrow mouth...
(One interesting source for much of this is sefat Emet by benzoin hacohen, a
Tunisian haredi, who goes through history of different Hebrew
pronunciations)
Therefore, while it is true that in recent times ashkenazim read a kamatz
one way, it is also true that it is an authentic minhag Ashkenaz to read a
hataf like a kamatz. Those who are trying to reestablish authentic minhag
Ashkenaz may want to consider it....

There is a tshuva by rev tzvi pesach frank who was asked if a litvak was
yotze kriat megilla by a Galizianer, and he answered shelo gara milashon
shebadu chachamim. Cute answer. However, I would suggest that, especially
when communities are close together, we should accept different
pronounciations -- even if we do not choose to use them. We need to widen
our tent....

Meir Shinnar