[Avodah] taker but not giver

[Zev Sero]

On 7/2/23 20:36, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 07, 2023 at 03:31:45PM -0500, Zev Sero wrote:

>> If that were so, then it would have applied in equal force before 1800.

> Tosafos on Shabbos 19a "nosenin" hold that mishum eiva permits a shevus.
> Similarly the Meiri on Beitzah 21b.

1. That is darkei shalom, not eiva

2. We are talking about healing nochrim on Shabbos, and the Tosfos has 
nothing to do with it.  The Tosfos says that since we are allowed to 
support aniyei nochrim together with aniyei yisrael, because of darkei 
shalom, therefore by a stretch we can consider them our dependents, 
which permits feeding them on Shabbos, just as we can feed our domestic 
animals which depend on us.


> But for deOraisos, you are correct, the first sources I can find are
> after the fall of the ghetto walls. But not sure why I am not to take
> the word of 2 centuries of posqim just because you assert "This is simply
> not true."

Because you are once again writing something that is simply not true. 
Go back and look at your astonishing assertion, to which I replied that 
it was not true.  Nothing you have cited since then even tends to 
support that assertion.  It remains a complete falsehood.

And it's not just that you can't find a source before 1800.  It's that 
every posek from before then holds explicitly the opposite.  And no 
posek since then invokes "darkei shalom"; their rationale is eivah, 
which is exactly what you were taught as a child and that you now claim 
was not true.  Nobody was "misinterpreting Chazal's idiom".


-- 
Zev Sero            “Were we directed from Washington when to sow
zev at sero.name       and when to reap, we should soon want bread.”
		    –Thomas Jefferson: Autobiography, 1821.