[Avodah] To Whom Should One Pray At A Tzaddik's Kever?

[Micha Berger]

On Wed, Aug 22, 2018 at 04:46:28PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
:> I would think,
:> as you implied elsewhere, that the Tanya's "tzadiq" was meant as an
:> archetype to strive for. But if this is your standard, an archetype
:> noone has ever and can ever fully embody.

: On the contrary, the Tanya insists there have been and are tzadikim,
: who have no yetzer hara at all, or else the world could not exist.
: "HKBH saw that tzadikim are few, so He planted them in each
: generation."

Yes, but this doesn't answer my question how there can be any tzadiqim
by this standard.

If a tzadiq is someone who so nullified  his yh"r that he has no free
will, everything he does is Hashem's, then even Moshe Rabbeinu doesn't
qualify. "Ein tzadiq baaretz asher ya'aseh tov velo yechtah."

(Side note, an interesting pasuq for Shelomo haMelekh, a Ben Yishei to
write, no?)

Speaking of which, none of the people under discussion are the four who
didn't sin.

Someone with no yh"r, who purely does Hashem's Will, couldn't have
done whatever it was with Bas Sheva that Uriah told David Hashem hadn't
wanted. So is that really what having "libi chalal beqirbi means"?

For that matter, Avraham wouldn't have had to be told Hashem's Will when
it came to expelling Yishma'el. Or, if you follow the Ramban (Bereishis
12:10) his choice of "achosi hi" was "ki Avraham chata chaeit gadol"
(with Sarah as victim), "vehayah lo livtoach Bashem".

So if tzadiq really is someone without a yh"r, indeed, who qualified?

I asked how that line of reasoning is flawed. Not a reassertion of the
position the reasoning is inconsistent with.

: The example from whom the Tanya (ch 1) derives its definition of a
: tzadik is David, who wrote "my heart is hollow within me", and its
: source for the difficulty in determining whether one is a tzadik or
: a benoni is Rabba, who mistook himself for a benoni until Abaye
: objected that he must be a tzadik for if he was not then there must
: be no tzadikim at all, and nothing could live in such a world.  The
: iconic example of the merkava, the "car" that responds completely to
: its Driver, is the Avos.  "Avos hein hein hamerkava."

While the Tanya explains Rabbah's interaction with Abayei, it is an
elaboration / explanation of his shitah, not a proof. A more common
understanding of beinoni, something closer to the Rambam's line in Hil'
Teshuvah, would also have Abayei saying that if if Rabbah were a beinoni
there couldn't be any tzadiqim in the world.

One is still left asking whether Abayei actually meant Rabbah had no
yh"r.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Every child comes with the message
micha at aishdas.org        that God is not yet discouraged with
http://www.aishdas.org   humanity.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   - Rabindranath Tagore