[Avodah] To Whom Should One Pray At A Tzaddik's Kever?

[Danny Schoemann]

As I said, I'm going to tackle these issues one by one, as I am trying
to get to clarity, and not to create a Megila-length post.

(Part 1 was cemeteries.)
(Part 2 was angels.)

Part 3: Piyutim; trusting the previous generations.

RMB:
> So, there is some kind of line to be drawn when speaking to angels. The
> Gra draws it in a more restrictive place than most, and thus curtails
> saying piyutim that are commonplace.

And that should beg the question why the Gra didn't trust the wisdom
of earlier generations. But in general I'm suspicious of all "Gra
quotes" - especially since reading the Reb Chaim Volozhin's "haskomo"
to the Ma'aseh Rav (printed in the good-old Gra siddurim) where he
questions the Zecher-double-segol claim, claiming that in his days the
Gra didn't do that.

More to the point: Where do we see the Gra actually discussing this?

RMB:
> Shalom Aleikhem was written in the early 17th century; it was only
> around a century old when the Yaavetz objected to it, and something like
> 150 yrs old in the Gra's day.

So the 17th-century Rabbonim (early Achronim) saw no reason to stop it
from becoming popular.
Did angels have bechirah in their time? ;-)

RMB:
> Machnisei Rachamim, however, dates back to the late geonim, probably
> around 900 CE or so. That's a LOT of peer review.
>
> IOW, just because I can't bring myself to say something I am not sure
> I can say without thoughts of AZ -- if I am thinking at all -- doesn't
> mean I think no one else should say them. It is not so much that I
> am convinced of shitas haGra, and even if I were, it's obviously the
> mi'ut's opinion. Rather, the magnitude of AZ scares me. And even if
> these piyutim are intended in a manner that is mutar, who is to say my
> own kavanah threads that needle?

Back to what I wrote in Part 2: Maybe it would be better to convince
yourself of the "validity" of the Piyut, instead of assuming the Piyut
is flawed. (I'm not about to explain to The Mussar Man RMB the
importance of Mind Control.)

What would you say to an "anti-going-to-work Yid" who skips the
VeOsafta Degonecho verse in Shma because it seems to imply - what in
his mind is AZ - you need to go out to work?

RMB:
> (FWIW, I say 4 verses of Shalom Aleikhem anyway. The number 4 was intended
> to provide one verse to accompany the mal'akhim through each of the
> 4 olamos. However, there is a verse said after Borchuni according to
> the Kaf haChaim, a nusach followed by the Edot haMizrach. I don't know
> what their symbolism is for 5 verses. But by saying their BeShivtechem
> leShalom instead, I preserve the number 4. And when guests are over,
> or I am not home, I can just mumble the first word and not make an issue
> of saying something other than "Borchuni".)

Wait... there's no issur of AZ thoughts on Friday night? ;-)

RDS: (me)
> : 3. BTW: See the Be'er Heitev at the end of 559:10 quoting the Ari z"l
> : that one should never go to a cemetery except for a burial...

RMB:
> Interestingly, that seems to be the practice of Beis Brisk, although I
> am guessing their source isn't the Ari.

Frankly, in the "good old days" I suspect all Yidden kept away from
cemeteries, so as not to have to deal with the 7-day purification
period.

We see in Chagiga 22b that an Am HaAretz is believed regarding the
relatively rare Tumas-Mes impurity.

It's this fascination with visiting cemeteries that is new, I think.
My grandparents z"l considered graveyards to be no-entry zones, except
for burials. I was with my mother when she went into a graveyard for
the first time; she still prefers to keep away (biz zum 120). No Brisk
or Ari z"l Mesora involved with us Yekkes.

As I wrote, I'm trying to get to clarity on these issues;  I'm sure
you have thought this through and can sort this all out.

Kol Tuv

- Danny