[Avodah] The Vilna Gaon and Secular Studies

[Prof. Levine]

At 01:59 PM 4/17/2018, Micha Berger wrote:
>On Sun, Apr 15, 2018 at 08:14:25PM +0300, Marty Bluke via Avodah wrote:
>: Secular studies were not instituted in the US as a lechatchila but as a
>: bdieved.
>
>Historically this was true, but maybe because of timing.

This was not historically true at all.  The 
Talmud torah set up by Shearith Israel in the 
18th century taught secular as well as Torah 
subjects.  The day school set up by Rabbi Avraham 
Rice did the same. While it is true that the 
level of Torah subjects taught was low,  still 
there were secular subjects almost from the beginning.

Etz Chaim in the late 19th century taught secular 
subjects and so did RJJ that was founded 
around1902.  The high school that Rabbi Dr. 
Bernard Revel started in the second decade of the 
20th century taught secular subjects as well as Torah subjects.

The day school established in Baltimore in 1917 taught secular subjects.

Please see my articles
<http://www.jewishpress.com/sections/magazine/glimpses-ajh/the-early-day-school-movement-in-america/2017/05/04/>
"The Early Day School Movement in America" Glimpses Into American Jewish
History Part 145 The Jewish Press, May 5, 2017.

<http://www.jewishpress.com/sections/magazine/glimpses-ajh/the-early-day-school-movement-in-america-1786-1879/2017/05/30/>
"The Early Day School Movement in America (1786 - 1879)" Glimpses Into
American Jewish History Part 146 The Jewish Press, May 30, 2017.

<http://www.jewishpress.com/sections/magazine/glimpses-ajh/history-of-the-day-school-movement-in-america-1880-1916/2017/07/06/>
"History of the Day School Movement in America (1880 1916)" Glimpses
Into American Jewish History Part 147

<http://personal.stevens.edu/~llevine/jp/Bringing%20Torah%20Education%20To%20Baltimore.pdf>
"Bringing Torah Education to Baltimore" The Jewish Press, October 3,
2008, pages 57 & 75.

>On Sun, Apr 15, 2018 at 04:08:16PM -0400, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
>: Do you really think that the Torah community is much stronger?
>: Externally it appears so, but, as R. A. Miller once said to me,
>: "There is a thin layer of frumkeit and underneath it is all rotten."
>
>So the problem is "frumkeit" rather than ehrlachkeit, not a lack of
>secular studies.

The strength of an Orthodox community is measured by how its member
behave, i.e. to want extent they live by true Torah values..

>Speaking of which... what would R' Avigdor Miller have thought of
>secular studies if the government wasn't forcing it on our teens?

I knew him well for over 30 years. He spent much time speaking about how
science can make us aware of the wonders of HaShem. He knew in detail
how bodily functions worked. He himself knew how to write well. It is
true that he had little use for literature, philosophy, etc. However,
he did value mathematics.

Once he moved to NY he enrolled his children in yeshivas that gave
its students a secular education. He received special permission not
to send his eldest son to public school in Chelsea, MA, since there
was no other alternative at the time. (His eldest daughter did attend
public school in Chelsea, MA.) Lazar Miller, his eldest son, told me
when he was sitting shiva for his mother that his mother used to help
him with his math. However, she used Hebrew terminology for fraction,
numerator, and denominator, since she had studied at two Yavneh schools
in Lithuania where everything was learned in Ivrit.

>: How much Chillul HaShem do we see?  How much sexual abuse do we hear about?
>
>Sexual abuse is as big of a problem in the worlds of the OU and Yeshivat
>haKotel as in places where secular education is eschewed.
>
>I would stick to discussing financial crimes:
...
>But there too, I think the main cause is frumkeit. And a misunderstanding
>of what someone else or their institution (bank, gov't) not being of the
>am hanivchar means.

What is frumkeit? Can one define it? Frumkeit tends to focus on
externalities, whereas Ehrlichkeit is something internal. I will take
Erlichkeit with aberrance to mitzva practice over Frumkeit any time.

>I've been in academia, but not nearly as long as you, Prof Levine,
>have. I'm sure your experience would agree that secular knowledge does
>not produce people less prone to these things.

I never meant to imply that having secular knowledge imparts morality to
those who possess it. Originally, higher education in America was tied
to religious education, and there was an attempt to instill morality in
the students. Today, there is no such attempt. Indeed, if anything,
higher education is in many cases anti-morality from a Torah standpoint.
Parents contemplating sending their children to a secular collage should
keep this in mind.

YL