[Avodah] The Vilna Gaon and Secular Studies

[Micha Berger]

On Tue, Apr 17, 2018 at 06:00:38PM -0400, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
: At 01:59 PM 4/17/2018, Micha Berger wrote:
:> On Sun, Apr 15, 2018 at 08:14:25PM +0300, Marty Bluke via Avodah wrote:
:> : Secular studies were not instituted in the US as a lechatchila but as a
:> : bdieved.

:> Historically this was true, but maybe because of timing.

: This was not historically true at all. The Talmud torah set up
: by Shearith Israel in the 18th century ...
: Etz Chaim in the late 19th century taught secular subjects ...
: The day school established in Baltimore in 1917 taught secular subjects.

None of which led to the dayschool movement. Of the three, Eitz Chaim
even conformed to the started by Levatikim stereotype I gave, if just
too early for what we're discussing.

Eitz Chaim did evolve into something, but YU and RIETS aren't day
schools. MTA and BTA start later. R' Matlin started Eitz Chaim as a
post-PS program in his apartment. I don't know when secular studied
began, but initially, it didn't have to.

In any case, the schools we all attended are a product of a later
trend. When R "Mr" Schraga Feivel Mendelovitch had limudei chol instituted
in Torah vaDaas, do you think the "vaDaas" was his idea of lekhat-chilah?

....
:> So the problem is "frumkeit" rather than ehrlachkeit, not a lack of
:> secular studies.

: The strength of an Orthodox community is measured by how its member
: behave, i.e. to want extent they live by true Torah values..

But you haven't shown a connection between the lack of limudei chol
and the extent by which people are not living according to some
derekh's understanding of "true Torah values".

:> Speaking of which... what would R' Avigdor Miller have thought of
:> secular studies if the government wasn't forcing it on our teens?

: I knew him well for over 30 years. He spent much time speaking about how
: science can make us aware of the wonders of HaShem. ...

And yet would have felt a student who studied science as a full time
endevor to be a cause fo a cheshbon hanefesh.

And consequently, due to his own lack of formal study, much of the science
he uses in his examples is just plain wrong. (And similarly, someone
who knew the then-latest theories of cosmogony, geology and evolution
would not have found is arguments for Creationism very convincing. If
you don't know what the other side of the debate believes, you end up
knocking down strawmen.)

: how bodily functions worked. He himself knew how to write well. It is
: true that he had little use for literature, philosophy, etc. However,
: he did value mathematics.

Leshitakha-- Why aren't you asking how R' Miller could ignore RSRH's
paean to Schiller?

:> But there too, I think the main cause is frumkeit. And a misunderstanding
:> of what someone else or their institution (bank, gov't) not being of the
:> am hanivchar means.

: What is frumkeit? Can one define it? Frumkeit tends to focus on
: externalities, whereas Ehrlichkeit is something internal...

Frumkeit is about ritual and a drive to satisfy one's need to be holy.
Ehlichkeit is about wanting to do G-d's Will.

A frum "baal chessed" wants his gemach to be the biggest in town. An
ehrlicher one is happy those in his town in need have so many sources
of help.

See Alei Shur vol II pp 152-155 <http://www.aishdas.org/as/frumkeit.pdf>
A translation of an excetp by R' Ezra Goldschmiedt
<http://www.aishdas.org/mussar/aleishur/frumkeit>
My blog post on the topic <http://www.aishdas.org/asp/what-is-frumkeit>.

And if that's not your definition, it's the one I intended when I said
that the main cause of the chilulei hasheim you raised (and the mindset
that least to them which is in-and-of-itself un-Jewish) is frumeit.

:> I've been in academia, but not nearly as long as you, Prof Levine,
:> have. I'm sure your experience would agree that secular knowledge does
:> not produce people less prone to these things.

: I never meant to imply that having secular knowledge imparts morality to
: those who possess it...

So then why bring up immoral behavior as proof that there are problems
with a lack of secular education?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 18th day, which is
micha at aishdas.org        2 weeks and 4 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Netzach sheb'Tifferes: What is imposing about
Fax: (270) 514-1507                             balance?