[Avodah] The Vilna Gaon and Secular Studies

[Micha Berger]

On Sun, Apr 15, 2018 at 08:14:25PM +0300, Marty Bluke via Avodah wrote:
: Secular studies were not instituted in the US as a lechatchila but as a
: bdieved.

Historically this was true, but maybe because of timing. The wave of
rabbis coming in when the big drive for day school education started
were predominantly a particular kind of Litvak. Look who the big
voices were in the Agudas haRabbanim of the first half of the 20th
century.

RARakeffetR makes a strong case that one of the differences between
RSRH and RYBS was just how lekhat-chilah secular studies are.

RSRH held that our insulation from general culture and general knowledge
was a tragic consequence of ghettoization. And that we never chose that
life, it was forced upon us. The Emancipation was seen as a boon, allow
the full expression of Judaism again.

RYBS, in RARR's opionion (and of course, others vehemently disagree)
only saw secular studies as the ideal way to live in a suboptimal
situation. Secular knowledge in-and-of-itself as well as its ability to
help one live in dignity is lekhat-chilah only within this bedi'eved
world. But had we all been able to move back to Brisk, it would be all
the better.

Which gets us to the eis la'asos discussion. Shas too is lekhat-chilah
and a great thing. What is bedi'eved is the reality that forced Rebbe,
Rav Ashi, Ravinah to canonize official texts and (according to Tosafos)
the geonim to write it down. But since we are still in that reality,
we still publish TSBP -- lekhat-chilah.


On Sun, Apr 15, 2018 at 04:08:16PM -0400, Prof. Levine via Avodah wrote:
: Do you really think that the Torah community is much stronger?
: Externally it appears so, but, as R. A. Miller once said to me,
: "There is a thin layer of frumkeit and underneath it is all rotten."

So the problem is "frumkeit" rather than ehrlachkeit, not a lack of
secular studies.

Speaking of which... what would R' Avigdor Miller have thought of
secular studies if the government wasn't forcing it on our teens?

: How much Chillul HaShem do we see?  How much sexual abuse do we hear about?

Sexual abuse is as big of a problem in the worlds of the OU and Yeshivat
haKotel as in places where secular education is eschewed.

I would stick to discussing financial crimes:
    Yafeh Talmud Torah im Derekh Eretz
    sheyegi'as sheneihem mishkachas avon.
    VeKhol Torah she'ein imahh melakhah,
    sofahh beteilah vegoreres avon.
    - R' Gamliel beno shel R' Yehudah haNasi (Avos 2:2)

But there too, I think the main cause is frumkeit. And a misunderstanding
of what someone else or their institution (bank, gov't) not being of the
am hanivchar means.

I've been in academia, but not nearly as long as you, Prof Levine,
have. I'm sure your experience would agree that secular knowledge does
not produce people less prone to these things.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 17th day, which is
micha at aishdas.org        2 weeks and 3 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Tifferes sheb'Tifferes: What is the ultimate
Fax: (270) 514-1507                              state of harmony?