[Avodah] R' Baruch Ber Leibovitch (Prof. Levine)

[Prof. Levine]

At 04:31 AM 4/15/2018, Marty Bluke wrote:
>And yet the overwhelming majority of the Charedi 
>world agrees with his teshuva.
>
>There is no question that the simple reading of 
>the Rama is like R' Baruch Ber. The Rama writes:
>
>"But it is not for a person to learn anything 
>but Torah, Mishna and Gemara and the halachic 
>decisors that come after them and through this 
>they will acquire this world and the world to 
>come. But not with learning any other wisdoms. 
>In any case, it is permitted to learn through 
>happenstance all other knowledge as long as it 
>isn't a book of heresy.  This is what called by 
>the Rabbis a trip in the Pardes, A person should 
>not take a trip in the Pardes until he has 
>filled his belly with meat and wine [Torah] and 
>he knows the lasw of issur v'heter and the laws relating to mitzvos"
>
>The Rama clearly writes that secular studies 
>cannot be learned on a regular set basis. Not 
>only that, but he writes that even happenstance 
>secular studies should only be done AFTER you know shas and poskim.

I must admit that I do not understand your 
assertion against secular studies in conjunction 
with Torah studies even for boys at a young age..

The day school movement in the US was founded on 
the principle of a dual curriculum. The model was 
RJJ. Today in the US the vast majority of 
yeshivas follow this model save for some of the 
Chassidic yeshivas.  Gedolim like Rav Yitzchok 
Hutner (Chaim Berlin), (Mr.) Shraga Feivel 
Mendlowitz (Torah Vodaath),  Rav Avraham 
Kalmanovitz and Rav Shmuel Birenbaum (Mir), Rav 
Dr. Yosef Breuer and Rav Shimon Schwab (Yeshiva 
RSRH) ,  to name just a few,  headed yeshivas in 
which boys were taught Torah and secular studies 
in elementary and high school grades.  I am sure 
they were well aware of what the RAMA wrote and 
paskened that it did not apply today.

Even in Europe in the 19th century there were 
some places where secular and Torah studies were 
taught along side each other.  The Kelm Talmud 
Torah was one.  From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelm_Talmud_Torah

"In addition to Jewish subjects, students studied 
general subjects such as geography, mathematics, 
and Russian language and literature for three 
hours a day. The Kelm Talmud Torah was the first 
traditional yeshiva in the Russian empire to give 
such a focus to general studies. "

There was the 
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_von_L%C3%A4mel>Lämel-School 
in 
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem>Jerusalem 
where both Torah and secular subjects were taught.

So I really do not understand why you focus on 
the RAMA when it is clear that yeshiva education 
in many places, since the 19th century and 
throughout the 20th century  involved a 
combination of Torah and secular studies.

What are you arguing about?

YL

YL

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