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<font size=3>At 04:31 AM 4/15/2018, Marty Bluke wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">And yet the overwhelming
majority of the Charedi world agrees with his teshuva. <br><br>
There is no question that the simple reading of the Rama is like R'
Baruch Ber. The Rama writes:<br><br>
"But it is not for a person to learn anything but Torah, Mishna and
Gemara and the halachic decisors that come after them and through this
they will acquire this world and the world to come. But not with learning
any other wisdoms. In any case, it is permitted to learn through
happenstance all other knowledge as long as it isn't a book of
heresy. This is what called by the Rabbis a trip in the Pardes, A
person should not take a trip in the Pardes until he has filled his belly
with meat and wine [Torah] and he knows the lasw of issur v'heter and the
laws relating to mitzvos"<br><br>
The Rama clearly writes that secular studies cannot be learned on a
regular set basis. Not only that, but he writes that even happenstance
secular studies should only be done AFTER you know shas and
poskim.</blockquote><br>
I must admit that I do not understand your assertion against secular
studies in conjunction with Torah studies even for boys at a young
age..<br><br>
The day school movement in the US was founded on the principle of a dual
curriculum. The model was RJJ. Today in the US the vast majority of
yeshivas follow this model save for some of the Chassidic yeshivas.
Gedolim like Rav Yitzchok Hutner (Chaim Berlin), (Mr.) Shraga Feivel
Mendlowitz (Torah Vodaath), Rav Avraham Kalmanovitz and Rav Shmuel
Birenbaum (Mir), Rav Dr. Yosef Breuer and Rav Shimon Schwab (Yeshiva
RSRH) , to name just a few, headed yeshivas in which boys
were taught Torah and secular studies in elementary and high school
grades. I am sure they were well aware of what the RAMA wrote and
paskened that it did not apply today.<br><br>
Even in Europe in the 19th century there were some places where secular
and Torah studies were taught along side each other. The Kelm
Talmud Torah was one. From
<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelm_Talmud_Torah" eudora="autourl">
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelm_Talmud_Torah</a><br><br>
"In addition to Jewish subjects, students studied general subjects
such as geography, mathematics, and Russian language and literature for
three hours a day. The Kelm Talmud Torah was the first traditional
yeshiva in the Russian empire to give such a focus to general studies.
"<br><br>
There was the
<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_von_L%C3%A4mel"><i>Lämel</a>
-School</i> in
<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem">Jerusalem</a> where
both Torah and secular subjects were taught.<br><br>
So I really do not understand why you focus on the RAMA when it is clear
that yeshiva education in many places, since the 19th century and
throughout the 20th century involved a combination of Torah and
secular studies.<br><br>
What are you arguing about?<br><br>
YL<br><br>
YL<br>
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