[Avodah] Minhag Shtus

Micha Berger via Avodah avodah at lists.aishdas.org
Fri Nov 25 08:01:27 PST 2016


I wrote:
:> Atifah is a chiyuv? I thought it was minhag to make a point of wearing
:> a four cornered garment during tefillah.

In private email, I sent RMP some meq1oros.

The Rama in 17:2, in ddiscussing tzitzis for nashim and avadim, explains
that tzitzis "is not a chovas gavra. (Agur siman 27) Meaning, he is not
chayav to buy tzitzis for him in order to obligate him in tzitzis. Later
in siman 19, it says, 'when he has a talis of 4 corners {and wears it)."

The MB (s"q 5) contrasts this to women making a berakhah on lulav, which
is a chovas gavra. "Because there there is no chovas gavra, because
a man has no obilgation deOraisa to buy a talis of 4 corners. Rather,
if he is mis'ateif, he must mdo it with tzitzis..."


RMP replied:
: *Ituf* is how you properly wear a four-cornered garment -- i.e. it's a
: prerequisite when fulfilling *mitzvas tzitzis*.

Me:
:> One might argue that a minhag to be yosheiv uboteil from some mitzvah
:> makhsheres or qiyumis (an asei that's not an imperitive) is a minhag
:> shtus, but I didn't take that for granted. Clearly the MB felt that
:> without the "derashah", it would be very strange.

: From Tur OC 17 (especially BaCH ad loc.) and from SA OC 17:3, which are
: based on the sources I mentioned as well as on TY, a parent (or anyone
: obligated by the *mitzvas _chiyuvis_ d'chinuch*) who can afford to buy
: himself a *talis* must also buy a *talis* for his son (or ward) so long as
: that young man understands how (i.e. has the *da'as*) to be *misateif* (TB)
: and/or how to keep two *tzitzis* in front of his body and two behind (TY).

However, for all this derivation, when it comes to the din itself, there is
no chiyuv of ituf or even to buy a tallis.

The Rama in 17:3 says "tzarikh", not "chayav", to buy him tzitzis. Not
sure that matters, but in light of what he says in the previous se'if,
it could well be. The MB s"q 9 explains the Rama as saying he needs
"to buy him a beged w/ 4 corners and hang tzitzis on them in order to
teach him mitzvos". S"q 10 is where he justifies East European minhag.

And there is where I got that impression that if it weren't for the
"derashah" of "gedilim ta'aseh lekha" being next to "ki yiqach ish ishah"
it would be tamuha to be mevatel from mitzvas tzitzis.


So, if the Rama says there is no chiyuv of atifah, but a chiyuv that
any atifah should be done with tzitzis, how do we understand the meqoros?

The gemara (Sukkah 42a) says that the chiyuv of tzitzis starts when the
qatan can understand atifah. By implication, a qatan who doesn't know how
to do atidah is allowed to wear a four cornered garment without tzitzis,
and when he does, either don't wear the beged, or put tzitzis on it.

Look at the previous case -- the chiyuv of lulav begins when the child
knows how to do na'anu'im. Na'anu'im aren't me'aqvim; they are ony hiddur
mitzah. The din is to hold the 4 minim. Still, that's the definition of
bar da'as.

Here too, atifah is given as the shiur for a bar da'as WRT tzitzis,
not WRT atifah.

Look at the Yad (pereq 1) -- the mitzvah is a makhshir for 4 cornered
garments. The Rambam never phrases a chiyuv to wear the four-cornered
garment, never mind be mes'ateif in it.

Also, WRT lulav, "al netilas lulav" not "al leqikhas lulav", even though
you don't have to raise the 4 minim to be yotzei. You can't deduce things
from a berakhah.

I think na'anu'im are a good parallel. The chuyuv is to hold the four
minim. We do na'anu'im as to do more than the chiyuv. A child doesn't
understand the mitzvah until he understands na'anu'im. But they aren't
a chiyuv.

Similarly talmud Torah, another case in the gemara. The cutoff maturity
is old enough to speak. But one can fulfill _vehagisa bo yomam valaylah_
without speaking.

(I skipped tefillin, because being able to guard one's tefillin is a
practical necessity. Which complicates analyzing its role as a maturity
test.)

It is possible that the minhag started in error. But I do not see it
calling for a violation of the din.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "The worst thing that can happen to a
micha at aishdas.org        person is to remain asleep and untamed."
http://www.aishdas.org          - Rabbi Simcha Zissel Ziv, Alter of Kelm
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