[Avodah] The Beracha on Matzo

Akiva Miller via Avodah avodah at lists.aishdas.org
Sun Nov 20 17:17:05 PST 2016


A few weeks ago, I wrote:

: I question the whole logic of "since matzo is the bread on those days."
: Are the definitions of Pas Habaah B'Kisnin so flexible that they would
: vary from one part of the year to another? I do not see evidence of
: this flexibility.

R' Micha Berger answered:

> Isn't this case itself the evidence your looking for?
>
> Sepharadim appear to say that it is context sensitive, like depending
> on the part of the year. Whereas Ashenazim *might* well hold that being
> used like bread part of the year means it is used like bread, full-stop.
>
> But I see what you're saying, it tends to differ by function. Like bagel
> chips. If they were made to be bagels and only toasted after baking,
> they're bread. If they were made for the sole purpose of chip manufacture
> -- pas haba bekisnin.

The case itself is not the evidence I'm looking for, because I haven't seen
anything in print to support the practice. Your report of what people *do*
might be accurate, but I want to know if they are correct.

I will rephrase my argument.

Pas Habaa b'kisnin has three distinctive definitions. And the halacha is
clear that these are inclusive of each other. For example, if someone has a
babka and a honey cake and a pretzel in front of him, he can say Mezonos on
any of them, and then eat them all. At no point need he worry that if this
is Mezonos, then another must be Hamotzi. The halacha accepts that if ANY
of these unusual changes are done to the recipe, then it will be a snack
food by definition.

RMB's comment about bagel chip refers to a discussion we had way back in
the Digest 1:38, over 18 years ago, when R' Levi Reisman wrote:

> Twenty years ago, I attended a series of shiurim by Rabbi Yosef Wikler
> (editor of Kashrus Magazine) on the subject of pas haba be-kisnin, ...
>
> Now we get to the issue of melba toast made with water.  First, bread
> is baked, than it is cut into thin strips and toasted.  What is the
> beracha? Rabbi Wikler said he asked Reb Moshe Feinstein the question and
> his answer was that it depended on the intentions of the bakers when the
> bread was being made.  If the bread was baked with the intention that it
> be made into melba toast, the beracha was mezonos, since the process
> ended with something thin and crispy, not normally used as bread.
> However, if the bread was baked with the intention of using it as bread,
> and only afterwards converted for use as melba toast, then the beracha
> was hamotzi, since it was being baked to be used as bread.
>
> Applying this logic to bagel chips, it would appear that if the bread is
> made in the bagel chip factory and the entire lot is used to make bagel
> chips, the beracha would be mezonos. However, if the bread was purchased
> from a supplier, part of whose product run was intended for use as bread,
> then the beracha would be hamotzi.
>
> ...

This discussion of bagel chips may seem to introduce a fourth type of PHBK,
but it merely elaborates on the general rule: The crispiness of the product
is not determined by the first time it comes out of the oven, but is still
in limbo until the manufacturer considers it "done".

I had asked about the "flexibility" of these definitions. My point was that
in every case, the halacha is "If you have a bread-like food, but it is
typically eaten as a snack, then when you do eat it as a snack, it is
mezonos." But I have never seen a situation where a posek says, "If you
have a snack-like loaf or cracker, but it is typically eaten as the basis
of a meal, then when you do eat it as the basis of a meal, it is hamotzi."

Is there any precedent for such a reversal? Is there any precedent for
saying that in certain communities and/or times of year (for example,
Ashkenazi Americans during Pesach) crispy matzah can re-acquire Hamotzi
status, and/or be exempted from the halachos that lower it to Mezonos, such
that a person who wants a piece of this matzah *between* meals as a *snack*
is required to say Hamotzi and Birkas Hamazon? Is there anything in Hilchos
Pas Habaa B'Kisnin that sets a precendent for this?

I would like to offer a possible precedent:

Suppose I have a bag of something that the manufacturer - and his Rav
Hamachshir - labeled "Mezonos Rolls". The ingredients proudly announce that
there is no water at all in these rolls; even the fruit juice was fresh and
natural, and *not* reconstituted from water. Since there is more juice,
eggs, oil, etc, than water in this recipe, therefore, the rolls do meet the
halacha's definition of Pas Habaa B'Kisnin. But the baker was very clever,
and managed to give these rolls a rather bland taste. That's not to say
that they taste bad, only that no one would snack on them. And in fact, no
one *does* snack on them. They are used as a substitute for bread, to make
sandwiches that don't require washing or benching.

As I understand it, the poskim are divided on what to do when eating such a
sandwich. Some say that the sandwich constitutes Kvias Seudah and therefore
it becomes Hamotzi, while others say that it does not constitute Kvias
Seudah and so it remains Mezonos. But my question concerns the case where
there is NO Kvias Seudah: If one does eat such a roll as a snack, what is
the bracha?

I have clear memories of an eitzah given by the OU or the Star-K, though I
cannot find a citation right now. The author took the position that such
rolls, when eaten with a meal, DO become hamotzi, yet he suggested what to
do with such a roll that comes with one's airline meal: Simply eat the meal
on its own, and then later on, one can eat the roll as a snack, saying
Mezonos.

If that memory is accurate, then it is a precedent-setting case: Despite
the ubiquity of "mezonos rolls" in certain situations (i.e., on an
airplane) that does NOT reverse the halacha that they are indeed PHBK. If
offer this as evidence to the chevra that the same applies to crispy thin
matzah: Despite the ubiquity of using crispy matzah as the mainstay of
meals in certain situations (i.e., where soft matza is unavailable for
whatever reason), it remains PHBK, and the bracha when snacking on it -
even during Pesach - is Mezonos.

Akiva Miller
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