[Avodah] kitniyot

Zev Sero zev at sero.name
Sun Mar 10 07:40:15 PDT 2013

On 10/03/2013 4:59 AM, Eli Turkel wrote:
>>It's an explicit Rama. He permits lighting kitniyos oil, not eating it,
>> and his reason is that if it should happen to fall into the food it will
>> be batel.  IOW he is explicitly saying that the oil itself, in its non-
>> batel state, may not be eaten.  Given that I don't understand how anyone
>> could have permitted it.

> I already pointe dout last year that the Marcheshet said that kiniyot
> oils are no problem and Ramah means only oils made on Pesach.

Have you read the Marcheshet?   I have, and he certainly does not say any
such thing.  Please do not quote sources that you have not read.  The
Marcheshet is looking for leniencies for oil, and finds some, but it is
patently false to claim that he doesn't see the problem, or that the Rama
(and Trumat Hadeshen) is only talking about oil made on Pesach.  The
leniencies that he finds for kitniyos oil are 1) Being careful not to let
it get wet, just as one must with grain; or 2) Chalita, which he says is
still good for kitniyos if done before Pesach, even though the Ge'onim
forbade it for grain.

By the way, if you read the Marcheshet you'd see that he does not believe
that kitniyos applies only to specific species.  He explicitly says the
gezera was on broad categories, and thus would apply to peanuts too.

> R. Elchanan Spektor and Rav Kook explicitly allowed using kitniyot oils
> that had no mixture of water added.

This heter was only given on condition that the sesame was treated exactly
as if it were grain.  Under that condition, wheat oil would also be permitted,
if there were such a thing!  And yet the psak was controversial, because as
the Melamed Leho'il reports the established minhag in Yerushalayim (by both
Ashkenazim and Sefardim) was to forbid sesame and sesame oil.

By the way, if the minhag of Sefardim in Yerushalayim was to forbid kitniyos,
when and on what grounds did they become permitted there for Sefardim?

> see also Minchat Yitzchak  (IV:114:3)

I've seen it.  I very much doubt that you have.  What do you claim it says
that would support your position?  On the contrary, he forbids all kitniyos
oil, even if treated like grain.

> and also Mikra’ai Kodesh, Pesach II:60:2.

What sefer is this?  The only halacha sefer with that name I've heard of
is on Hil' Kri'as Hatorah.

> Rav Frank also allows peanuts and certainly peanut oil. He brings down
> that he heard that Rav Chaim Soloveitchik allowed cottenseed oil and
> agrees with that psak

This is not relevant to the topic we're discussing, which is kitniyos oil.
If he holds (for whatever reason) that peanuts and cottonseed are not
kitniyos, then of course their oil is permitted.  But if they are kitniyos
then you have no grounds to suppose that he would permit their oil.

> The OU allowed cottenseed oil. In Israel Rav Landau gave a hechsher for
> many years until it was withdrawn under charedi pressure. see the OU
> bulletin available at http://www.kashrut.com/Passover/Kitniyot/ for
> other information.

How is this *at all* relevant here?  The question of cottonseed is about
its own status, not about its oil.

> BTW the Rema (467:8) cites customs to not eat honey, raisins, dried fruit,
> sugar, saffron and cloves which I beleive most communities do not follow.

See MA that honey is permitted if it's directly from the comb; a hechsher
lepesach would be equivalent to this.  Dried fruit the Rema explicitly
permits if it's made in a way that is guaranteed not to have chametz; in
other words, it needs a hechsher for Pesach, a requirement that AFAIK all
communities today *do* follow.

On sugar he's very machmir, but this reflects the reality of those times,
when sugar was almost guaranteed to be chametz; it's not a gezera on the
species itself, as evidenced by the law he quotes from the Maharil to
permit Candian sugar on the last day.  Actually the MA quotes the Maharil
as being about sugar that he had personally brought from Candia, and even
that he only permitted on the last day.   But the fact that he did permit
it, and the Rema cites it, shows that there was never an issur on the
species, but only a real concern about chametz, so it would not apply to
sugar made with a hechsher, or nowadays when it's made under conditions
that we know that we know don't pose any concern.  (And yet there are
still many people who boil and strain the sugar before Pesach so that any
chametz will be batel.)

On saffron and cloves I don't know what most communities do.  The MA says
even home-grown saffron is forbidden.

Zev Sero               A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and
zev at sero.name          substantial reason' why he should be permitted to
                        exercise his rights. The right's existence is all
                        the reason he needs.
                            - Judge Benson E. Legg, Woollard v. Sheridan

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