[Avodah] torture in halacha???

[hankman]

I am sorry. In my last post I wrote "Most paskan tzb"c is daureisa based on 
the gm' B"B 32-3 (not like R Yoissi Hagligi there).  That cite should read 
gm' B"M 32-3.

Wrt to pain in insects there are opininons all over the place 
notwithstanding the highly simple and non central nervous systems that are 
without a full complement of neuro receptors as compared to say mammals. But 
I would think this would really depend on your definition of pain and how 
you would recognize it in other species if it were present. the following is 
the conclusion from a paper in Experementia,
D o   i n s e c t s  f e e l  p a i n ?  -  A b i o l o g i c a l  v i ew
C. H.  E i s e m a n n ,  W.  K .  J o r g e n s e n ,  D.  J. Me r r i t t 
,  M.  J. Ri c e ,  B. W.  Cr ibb,  P. D.  W e b b   a n d  M.  P. Z a l u c 
k i
Department of  Entomology, University of  Queensland, St. Lucia, Queensland 
4067 (Australia)
The   implications  o f   the  foregoing  discussion,  for
insects and othe r  invertebrates, n e e d  to be considered
with  caution.  Clearly, it  is  not   possible  to  provide  a
conclusive  answer  to  t h e  probl em  o f   pain  in  lower
animals, as  a n y  subjective experience o f  an organism
c annot   be  directly  experienced  by  a n o t h e r   a n d   a
me ans  o f  communi c a t ing with lower organisms is not
available  to  us.  On  balance,  however,  the  evidence
f rom  consideration o f  the   adapt ive   role  o f  pa in,   the
neur a l   organisation  o f   insects  a n d   observations  o f
their behavior  does  not   appe a r   to support  the  occur-
rence  in  insects  o f   a  pa in  state,  such  as  occurs  in
humans .   It  is  likely  tha t   the  same  could  be  said  o f
othe r  invertebrates  having  less  complex  nervous sys-
tems, though more c aut ion would be  ne eded in othe r
cases, n o t a b l y  tha t  o f  the c epha lopod molluscs, which
have a considerably more complex nervous system 23.

We  consider tha t  the expe r iment a l  biologist would be
advized to  follow, wheneve r  feasible, Wigglesworth's
r e commenda t ion tha t   insects have   the i r   nervous sys-
tems ina c t iva t ed prior  to  t r auma t i z ing ma n i p u l a t i o n .
This procedure  not  only facilitates handl ing,  but   also
guards against the  r ema ining possibility o f  pa in inflic-
tion  and,  equa l ly impor t ant ,   helps  to  preserve  in  the
experimenter  an  appropr i a t e ly  respectful  a t t i t u d e
towards  living  organisms  whose  physiology,  t h o u g h
different, a n d  pe rhaps  simpler t h a n  our  own, is as ye t
far from compl e t e ly unde r s tood.

Further to your point from shekatzim and remoshim, the Shailas ya'avetz is 
talking about a class that is bigger than just the S & R but also includes 
any animals that are too small to do any work, such as small mammals that 
unquestionably feel pain.

Finally about your point of "bror lo misa yafa," but the R. Gershom says its 
due to tzb"c and he does not refer to bror lo misa yafa at least as 
recounted in the Ateres Paz (although others may hold what you wrote as 
well). Besides he is here not referring to the manner of the misa itself (as 
in bror lo misa yafa) but to the anguish due to  delay prior to the misa.

Kol Tuv

Chaim Manastrer