[Avodah] torture in halacha???

[Micha Berger]

On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 12:08:33PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
>> and avoidable pain would not be permitted and kept to the minimum
>> possible consonant with the "purpose.". IOW if my "purpose" demands
>> the death but not the pain of the animal, must I avoid the pain?
>
> "Bror lo misa yafa" is derived from "ve'avhta lere'acha kamocha",
> not from tzaar baalei chayim...

But still, it would be absurd to think one may impose tzaar on a
person in a situation where it would be assur to do so to an animal.

On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 04:44:06PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> Re: shkotzim uremoshim, does it make a difference that insects are
> incapable of feeling pain?  Does it make a difference if you know
> this fact?  Or is the *appearance* of cruelty what counts, since it
> tends to foster a midas achzorius?

LAD, and I've argued this with others on Avodah in the past, even animals
that feel pain can't suffer in the same sense that we do. I pointed
to their lack of ruach memalela, of tzelem E-lokim (and then pointed
to the rishonim and acharonim who define it as bechirah chafshi) and
of ventro- and dorsoomedial prefrontal cortex, and thus deduced there
is reason to belief that animals have no metacognizance. They aren't
aware of their own thoughts. Pain is a negative stimulous which causes
certain responses, but they can't think about their pain or response.
There is pain, but not what we call suffering. There is no "I" in an
animal's psyche warranting our empathy.

Thus I believe that even with apes, it is all about the person habituating
himself as cruel, and not animal suffering.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 41st day, which is
micha at aishdas.org        5 weeks and 6 days in/toward the omer.
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