[Avodah] torture in halacha???

[hankman]

On 16/05/2012 9:10 AM, hankman wrote:
> Consider the much vaunted annual baby seal hunt. According to you
> (and me as well), I have a "purpose" - the valuable pelt - but can
> I now choose either a painful or painless way to obtain the pelt at
> will? I would think not
RZS wrote:
Why do you think not?  How do you square this with the fact that one
may pluck a pen from a living bird?

CM responds:
If you only have a living bird available and you need a quill then it is 
letsorech, but who says that if you have both a live and a dead bird in 
front of you that you are still permitted to inflict the tzb"c on the living 
bird - perhaps you would have to use the feather from the dead bird.
-------
CM wrote:
> and avoidable pain would not be permitted and kept to the minimum
> possible consonant with the "purpose.". IOW if my "purpose" demands
> the death but not the pain of the animal, must I avoid the pain?

RZS responded:
"Bror lo misa yafa" is derived from "ve'avhta lere'acha kamocha",
not from tzaar baalei chayim, or even from "pen yosif" or "tachas
asher inah".  So it would seem, lich'orah, only to apply to re'acha,
which includes no animals and only some humans.

CM responds:
As you say, "Bror lo misa yafa" is derived from "ve'avhta lere'acha 
kamocha", and may be specific to man, but as I posted yesterday not everyone 
takes this as the source for tzb"c which may apply to man in addition to the 
"Bror lo misa yafa"  derived from "ve'avhta lere'acha kamocha."

In any case, why would that imply no need for reduction of avoidable pain in 
cases other than those derived from "ve'avhta lere'acha kamocha," due to 
tzb"c (where this is an additional consideration derived from another 
source)?

Kol Tuv
Chaim Manaster