[Avodah] Daas Torah Rerere...redux - Pesachim 112a

[Zev Sero]

On 11/05/2012 2:17 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 10:58:05AM -0500, Lisa Liel wrote:
>>> Yes, knowing HOW to govern or WHO he is governing. Rashi uses a pair of
>>> matching clauses -- milei degirsa and milei detzibura. It seems compelling
>>> to me that he is comparing knowledge vs knowledge. Espesially since the
>>> word in repetition ("milei") literally means "words of".
>
>> On the contrary.  It means "things of".  Or "issues of".  Lomdus issues
>> vs public issues.
>
> That could well be the tanslation, but not "on the countrary" -- /mll/
> is the shoresh and "words" is the primary meaning from which others
> derive. Don't see how that changes the basic meaning of the phrase
> or the masqanah. I don't see Rashi as giving an argument specific to
> disqualifying a TC as mayor and not devalue his ability to advise a mayor.
>
> On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 12:24:37PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
>>> Rashi uses a pair of matching clauses -- milei degirsa and milei detzibura.
>
>> No, he doesn't.
>
>>> It seems compelling
>>> to me that he is comparing knowledge vs knowledge. Espesially since the
>>> word in repetition ("milei") literally means "words of".
>
>>   Turn that around.  Since he *doesn't* use the language you claim, your
>> own logic shows that he means the actual work of administration.
>
> You gave a converse, not a contrapositive, so while you defused my argument,
> your counter-argument doesn't work.

I think it does.  Rashi contrasts "his learning" with "public matters".
"His learning" is something that is he is doing now, not gathering
knowledge so he can learn at some other time.  So also "public matters"
is something that he is neglecting to do now, when it needs to be done;
i.e. it's the actual fixing of potholes, not gaining the wisdom to know
that potholes need to be fixed.


> On this topic, see Igeros haQodesh 8:2342 (14-Teves-5714)
> <http://www.chabadlibrary.org/books/default.aspx?furl=/admur/ig/8/2342>
> where the LR draws the distinction between Rashi: velo bemilei detzibura,
> and Rashbam: velo tatid bemilei detzibura. And says he wishes to be
> maqayim perush Rashi and not ch"v peirush Rashbam.

I don't understand the chiluk either, but I think you've misunderstood
the letter; it's not what he *wishes* to fulfil, it's what *has* been
fulfilled.  He writes that due to lack of time he was unable to prevent
mistakes in a project he was managing (milei detzibura), and so the
maamar chazal has been fulfilled, but only according to Rashi; the maamar
as Rashbam understands it has BH not been fulfilled.

So what is the difference?  I see two differences in the text: Rashi
says "begirseih", while Rashbam says "begirsa".  Is that a significant
difference?  Is Rashi referring only to his own private learning, while
Rashbam means all learning, even giving shiurim for others?  I don't
know.  The other difference is Rashi's omission of the parallel "tarid";
but surely it's implied.  *Maybe* the Rebbe means that the Rashbam says
a TC completely neglects his public duties, while Rashi says he does
them, but not as well as a non-TC would.  So the Rebbe says he did
devote time to the project, but not as much as it needed, so the result
was flawed.  But it's a very fine distinction, and maybe there's
something more obvious that we're both missing.  I'll ask R Berel Levin,
the editor of the Igros, for his opinion.


-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
zev at sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
		 are expanding through human ingenuity."
		                            - Julian Simon