[Avodah] Daas Torah Rerere...redux - Pesachim 112a

[Micha Berger]

On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 07:15:31PM -0400, Samuel Svarc wrote:
:> DT today is not pesaq, it's considered binding advice (more or less, depending
:> advice, but not a notion that this approach or that is actually assur,
:> using the kind of argument one sees in shu"t. Pesaq and mishpat are also
:> two different things.

: The above is your assertion, unsourced I might add, but 'ikar chaser
: min hasefer', you haven't explained how it's different from what
: occurred by Bar Kochba.

It's not an assertion, it's a definition. The concept of "daas Torah"
is defined as turning to rabbanim for advice even when the question is
not halachic, and not even about aggadita (eg weighing two conflicting
Torah values). As R' Bernard Weinberger put it in the 2nd issue of JO
(Oct 1963):
    a lot more than Torah weltanschauung or a Torah saturated
    perspective. It assumes a special endowment or capacity to penetrate
    objective reality, recognize the facts as they 'really' are, and apply
    pertinent Halachic principles. It is a form of 'Ruach HaKodesh,' as
    it were, which borders if not remotely on the periphery of prophecy.

Another formulation involves noting how Torah study enhances the shape
of all their thoughts.

(BTW, leshitas haRambam, those two possibilities: (1) near ruach haqodesh
and (2) how learning shapes the mind, would be identical. See Moreh 3:17.
But then, today's daas Torah is against all but yechidim learning the
Moreh. <grin>)

If this were not the rererere...redux, I would bother proving that the
concept of DT is of recent vintage. But we've been there, done that. What
I said then, refined and corrected by the discussion, appears here
<http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2004/11/todays-daas-torah.shtml>.

The idiom "daas Torah" (in this usage) similarly was coined in the 20th
cent. The gemara's usage is a near opposite -- if it's daas Torah, we'll
accept it, but if it's from R' Yehudah's daas (regardless of his great
immersion in Torah) we don't have to. Of course, the "we" are themselves
capable baalei pelugta -- that' why I said only "near opposite".

I therefore used the older term, emunas chakhamim, when discussing our
trust in our chakhamim when the question *is* about the Torah, rather
than about the metzi'us.

As for Bar Kokheva... He violated the issur against building your army on
mechalelei Shabbos befarhesia in his alliance with Tzedqim and Biryonim.
That's din, not strategic advice informed by R' Aqiva's daas Torah.

...
:> And RZS, BM 85a just says that R Zeira was so into acquiring the style
:> of learning in the Y-mi that among the things he fasted for was that he
:> not inherit R' Elazar ben Padas's job and "naflin iluyah milei detzibura".
:> not be responsible for milei detzibura like R' Elazar ben Padas. How does
:> that tell me what it means? Do we know whether REBP did or advised?

: That's all the same in civil administration.

As I later wrote, there is a difference between being the mayor and
being the mayor's DT advisor. R' Aqiva is clearly talking about a city
where the mayor and/or city council are talmidei chakhamim. I pointed to
Rashi because his rationale about not having invested the time to master
milei detzibura would appear to devalue the role of talmidei chakhaim as
advisors. That DT doesn't compensate for having a feel for the metzi'us.

...
: > I do not agree. He could make such a pesaq, using sources prohibiting
: > walking in areas where one is likely to stumble on causes of hirhurim. Or
: > if he were a Sanhedrin, he could make a taqanah. He could follow R'
: > Gershom and put all internet viewers into cheirem.

: So the ban on learning Kabbalah until the above criteria are met is what?

Somewhere in between. An aggadic statement; Torah based, but not an actual
issur. Unless we both hold like the mishnah Ein Doreshin (not too clear
from the gemara) lehalakhah, and they were using that or something of
the like to pasqen that all of Qabbalah qualifies.

:> But you're blurring the line between iqar hadin and qadeish es atzmekha
:> bemah shemutar lakh. Halakhah is made with legal arguments, citing shas
:> and priori posqim, not with polemics from the podium.

: Astonished at this conjecture...

As per the top, it's not a conjecture, it's the scope I brought to the
conversation when I chose to speak about daas Torah.

If you think the mayor TC pasqens that it's okay to start an expensive
street replacement project rather than engage in repairs based on his
opinion of conflicting projections of future tax revenues...

That's the DT case. To pasqen, one is deciding milei degirsa, after
experts clarified the milei detzibura (or whatever the domain of the
particular pesaq is).

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 34th day, which is
micha at aishdas.org        4 weeks and 6 days in/toward the omer.
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