[Avodah] Daas Torah Rerere...redux - Pesachim 112a

[Samuel Svarc]

On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 7:00 PM, Micha Berger <micha at aishdas.org> wrote:
> On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 06:29:17PM -0400, Samuel Svarc wrote:
> :> Yeah, when they pasqen. Not daas Torah. BK violated halakhah, not just
> :> advice.
> :
> : And Daas Torah today is not a psak? Do you think they dragged Bar
> : Kochva into a BD and there was mishpat? ...
>
> DT today is not pesaq, it's considered binding advice (more or less, depending
> advice, but not a notion that this approach or that is actually assur,
> using the kind of argument one sees in shu"t. Pesaq and mishpat are also
> two different things.

The above is your assertion, unsourced I might add, but 'ikar chaser
min hasefer', you haven't explained how it's different from what
occurred by Bar Kochba.

> ...
> : Detarud begirseih velo bemilei detzibura = He is busy with learning,
> : not with civil administration. Your interpretation should have Rashi
> : using other terms, e.g.  'bemilei deolam' = worldly matters....
>
> If you agree that milei are words and ideas (from /mll/, to speak), as
> in milei de'alma, or for that matter milei degirsa, then I don't know
> why you think milei detzibura is hands-on rather than knowing the society.
> Rashi is comparing what they take the time to learn.
>
> I am saying that "milei de-" refers to knowledge. Being responsible for
> them would mean something about words or speach, and thus advisory, not
> implementation. A rosh ha'ir manages, not does.

Agreed to the gist, that bemilei detzibura = civil *administration*
not civil works (management not manual labor).

> The question is whether Rashi's version of R' Aqiva's words about the
> mayor or town council would include being the man behind the mayor.

Well, you know what RZS, RLL, and myself hold about your original conjecture.

> And RZS, BM 85a just says that R Zeira was so into acquiring the style
> of learning in the Y-mi that among the things he fasted for was that he
> not inherit R' Elazar ben Padas's job and "naflin iluyah milei detzibura".
> not be responsible for milei detzibura like R' Elazar ben Padas. How does
> that tell me what it means? Do we know whether REBP did or advised?

That's all the same in civil administration.

> The only job I know of him having was that of R' Assi's amora.
>
> ...
> : E.g. A city's TC will pasken that usage of the Internet by anyone
> : under 40 who hasn't finished one round of Shas and Poskim is
> : prohibited (yes, the usage of the ban on Kaballah is intentional).
>
> : This is a clear psak...
>
> I do not agree. He could make such a pesaq, using sources prohibiting
> walking in areas where one is likely to stumble on causes of hirhurim. Or
> if he were a Sanhedrin, he could make a taqanah. He could follow R'
> Gershom and put all internet viewers into cheirem.

So the ban on learning Kabbalah until the above criteria are met is what?

> But you're blurring the line between iqar hadin and qadeish es atzmekha
> bemah shemutar lakh. Halakhah is made with legal arguments, citing shas
> and priori posqim, not with polemics from the podium.

Astonished at this conjecture. In my hypothetical scenario the TC
(plural I might add) of the city issued a psak to that effect, with
sources from Shas , SA and poskim. That you are unaware of these
sources just implies that you are not as learned as these
(hypothetical) TC, not that these (hypothetical) TC issued polemics
from a podium.

However debating a tangential scenario given as an example is
pointless, as you can agree that there are possible psakim that will
affect our city's administration, no?

Off to deal with a client's computer,
MSS