[Avodah] ret: costa concordia - and Specialization

[Micha Berger]

On Thu, Apr 05, 2012 at 04:18:07PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> On 5/04/2012 3:56 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
>> I said "both idioms".
>
> But only one is used to justify chilul shabbos.  And every posek until
> the 19th century ruled that failure to be mechalel shabbos for the sake
> of pikuach nefesh of einom yehudim would *not* produce sufficient eivoh
> to justify it.

In this reply, you again ignore my thesis. And the email you're replying
to itself was complaining that you ignored it the first time. Mishum
eivah (and darkhei shalom) are used numerous times in cases where
worries about retribution aren't realistic. It's simply not what the
phrase could possibly mean.

Instead you repeat something to which I already responded. Yes, until
Jews had any hope of life without eivah, no one worried about doing things
to avoid eivah. After Napoleon, mishum eivah became a meaningful concern.

I have no idea you insist your theory about change in metzi'us is more
plausible than mine. It doesn't seem so to me: When people would kill
Jews on any irrational pretense, the fact that they wouldn't think twice
about treating us the same way any day of the week wouldn't mean anything
WRT taking offence if Yehudi doctors ignored sick or wounded nachriim
on Shabbot and YT.

But since you're invoking your sevara as proof, I don't need to argue
which sevara is more likely to have been real. To remove your proof,
I just need to show your sevara isn't necessarily so.

Bekhol zos, I just want to hear why you think mishum eivah means "because
of retribution" WRT hilkhos Shabbos, but in every other sugya in which
it appears it's about simply avoiding enmity as an end in itself. That
was the iqar of what you're trying to argue against.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             When faced with a decision ask yourself,
micha at aishdas.org        "How would I decide if it were Ne'ilah now,
http://www.aishdas.org   at the closing moments of Yom Kippur?"
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter