[Avodah] karas hatov? required??

[Lisa Liel]

On 1/24/2012 2:45 PM, kennethgmiller at juno.com wrote:
> I asked:
>
>    
>> Why would the hakaras hatov for this [municipal garbage
>> collection] be any less than the hakaras hatov due to a
>> shopkeeper from whom one purchases his milk and bread?
>>      
> R"n Lisa Liel responded:
>    
>> On the contrary.  If a street kid runs into an intersection
>> while you're stopped and starts washing your window and demands
>> payment, do you owe him hakarat hatov?  I don't think so.
>>
>> In order to take money/services from a medina, it has to have
>> taken that money from you or others or both.  To then receive
>> some of it back doesn't seem like something requiring gratitude
>> from the recipient.
>>
>> I owe hakarat hatov to someone who gives me something of their
>> own, or does something for me themselves.  Someone who robs a
>> bank and gives me some of the proceeds doesn't merit my
>> gratitude either.
>>      
> I am particularly unsure about this in the case of a person who was WRONGLY stopped by the police, or who was mistreated by the police (which DOES happen on occasion). The police are human and make mistakes, and although it might be allowed to thank them for doing their job in such a case, I can certainly see room to say that the obligation is absent.
>    
I generally do say thank you in such cases, but it doesn't actually 
reflect hakarat hatov on my part.  It's probably actually an act of 
chanifa.  But since it's chanifa stemming from fear (the fear that any 
"civil servant" has the power to mess with my life with the power of the 
state behind it), I'm not sure it's assur.
> In the original post, R' Harvey Benton asked about another case besides garbage collection, and that was one who accepts money from the government. Here too I can see RLL's point. Accepting welfare is good for my bank account, but it is not without its downsides, and I can all too easily understand how a person might accept such money with very mixed feelings.
>    
I've received unemployment payments.  And I've disliked the necessity, 
but I certainly felt no gratitude for it, considering that I'm forced to 
pay into the unemployment every month whether I want to or not.  That 
being the case, I consider receiving some of my own money back to be my 
due, rather than a gift.  Similarly with tax refunds.  They feel like 
found money, but the fact is, that's my money, which the government has 
been holding for its benefit and not mine, and any of it that they 
return to me is hardly something I should be grateful for.

> In summary, I apologize for my glib response. These cases can be very complicated and must be examined very carefully.
>
> To do that examination, let's go back to the beginning. I began with the presumption that a person does owe some gratitude to a shopkeeper from who he buys his bread and milk. Even when he pays a fair price and the shopkeeper is making a fair profit, thus giving the appearance of a zero-sum game, the customer still owes gratitude to the shopkeeper, without whom he would have no bread and no milk. This is the halacha as I recall it, but I do not remember from where. Am I correct? Does anyone else know a source?
>    
I don't have a source off-hand, but it seems like a case of lama lee 
kra? Svara hee.  A person who provides goods or services, even if it's 
done entirely for his own benefit, benefits the users of those goods or 
services as well.  Without productive people, consumers have nothing to 
consume.  Whereas without consumers, producers can still produce what 
they need to survive.

> Once we have that source, we can compare it to the other cases. The most glaring difference that I can see is that I voluntarily chose to purchase my bread and milk, but the taxes and garbage collection and windshield cleaning and army and police are matters which I have little or no choice about. This could be an important distinction. Welfare usually involves a voluntary application at the beginning, but can become a severe addiction later, and will be an even more complicated question.
>    
I don't think that's how I'd put it.  Rather, I'd say that in the case 
of the government, they're simply giving me what they owe me.  In the 
case of a storekeeper, who does not exist for my sake but benefits me 
nonetheless, gratitude is appropriate.

Lisa