[Avodah] karas hatov? required??

[kennethgmiller at juno.com]

I asked:

> Why would the hakaras hatov for this [municipal garbage
> collection] be any less than the hakaras hatov due to a
> shopkeeper from whom one purchases his milk and bread?

R"n Lisa Liel responded:

> On the contrary.  If a street kid runs into an intersection
> while you're stopped and starts washing your window and demands
> payment, do you owe him hakarat hatov?  I don't think so.
>
> In order to take money/services from a medina, it has to have
> taken that money from you or others or both.  To then receive
> some of it back doesn't seem like something requiring gratitude
> from the recipient.
>
> I owe hakarat hatov to someone who gives me something of their
> own, or does something for me themselves.  Someone who robs a
> bank and gives me some of the proceeds doesn't merit my
> gratitude either.

At first, I saw no connection at all between garbage collection (a critical service which the government provides to all in partial return for taxes, and which I'd have to do myself otherwise) and windshield cleaning (a non-critical service which I'm being held hostage to at the random choice of this person). I see garbage collection as an essential service, but RLL seems to see it as criminal extortion (or something similar).

So I pondered other examples that she might have used, and I began to see her point. For example, Do I owe hakaras hatov to the police and army for protecting me, if I strongly disagree with some of their policies and procedures?

In actual fact, there have been times when the police have stopped me for a minor infraction, and afterwards I thank the officer for doing his job. But in the context of this thread, I honestly don't know if that gratitude is halachically required or if it is lifnim m'shuras hadin.

I am particularly unsure about this in the case of a person who was WRONGLY stopped by the police, or who was mistreated by the police (which DOES happen on occasion). The police are human and make mistakes, and although it might be allowed to thank them for doing their job in such a case, I can certainly see room to say that the obligation is absent.

In the original post, R' Harvey Benton asked about another case besides garbage collection, and that was one who accepts money from the government. Here too I can see RLL's point. Accepting welfare is good for my bank account, but it is not without its downsides, and I can all too easily understand how a person might accept such money with very mixed feelings.

In summary, I apologize for my glib response. These cases can be very complicated and must be examined very carefully.

To do that examination, let's go back to the beginning. I began with the presumption that a person does owe some gratitude to a shopkeeper from who he buys his bread and milk. Even when he pays a fair price and the shopkeeper is making a fair profit, thus giving the appearance of a zero-sum game, the customer still owes gratitude to the shopkeeper, without whom he would have no bread and no milk. This is the halacha as I recall it, but I do not remember from where. Am I correct? Does anyone else know a source?

Once we have that source, we can compare it to the other cases. The most glaring difference that I can see is that I voluntarily chose to purchase my bread and milk, but the taxes and garbage collection and windshield cleaning and army and police are matters which I have little or no choice about. This could be an important distinction. Welfare usually involves a voluntary application at the beginning, but can become a severe addiction later, and will be an even more complicated question.

Akiva Miller

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