[Avodah] sun and moon

[Micha Berger]

On Sun, Aug 28, 2011 at 10:45:12AM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> On 28/08/2011 2:50 AM, Micha Berger wrote:
>> Obviously, the Yad doesn't contradict a recurring theme in the Moreh.

> How about "Obviously the Moreh doesn't contradict the Yad"?  If there is
> any difference, then the Yad is primary, so where the Yad is clear why
> should I look in the Moreh?

Because if they look to you (sortof, you didn't actually look) like
they contradict, that means you didn't understand the Yad!

>> Your refusal to consult the sources doesn't deminish their evidence,
>> just your ability to hold "a high level Torah discussion."

> I'm arguing exclusively from the Yad; I don't really care what is written
> in some other place.

Well, if you're actively choosing ignorance, I really can't help.

>> What the Rambam says in the Yad is that Hashem causes the motion of the
>> spheres -- but indirectly.

> That's not what he says.  If it's indirect then what kind of proof is it
> that He exists?  If the galgal can move itself then what need has it for
> a Mover?  The proof only makes sense if he is saying that the galgal does
> *not* move itself, and therefore Someone must be moving it.

I showed you where he clearly says he means something else. G-d moves A,
which moves B, which .... which moves the outermost galgal, which moves...

And that's how this is relevent:
>> The causal chain of mal'akhim described in
>> YhT 2:3-8 is continued at the galgalim and kokhavim in 3:9.

> Yes, I don't see how it's relevant.

I hope the above helped, but since you're trying to understand the Yad
without studying the Rambam's machashavah as the Aristotilian physics
he tells you it's based on, I am not optimistic.

>> It's clear from 3:8 that kokhavim here means stars, not the planets
>> and moon.

> On the contrary, it reads better if we were somehow to suppose that he
> is *excluding* the stars in the eighth galgal!  Then the statement about
> nothing being bigger than the sun or smaller than mercury would be
> easily understood....

He tells you what he is talking about, the tiny twinkling things in the
sky at night.

...
> Excuse me?  How could you possibly have missed the word "hakochavim"
> when you just typed it in yourself?!  *Kol hakochavim vehagalgalim*.
> How could it be more explicit?

That's stars, as per above, not the moon. When you speak of the stars
and the things in the other galgalim, you mean stars, not astronomical
bodies as a whole.

But I'm done. You literally said you're trying to understand the Rambam
without learning him. You're reading 1% of the material and spinning it
to boot.

Bottom line: According to the Rambam, the galgalim and stars have
intellect. It's not the moon, it's the moon's galgal -- something that
has no place in contemporary astronomy. He needs the galgalim to have
intellects because they move perpetually. We don't. There is no reason to
believe the Rambam himself, with his attitude toward Torah and science,
would tell us to continue accepting his position.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It's never too late
micha at aishdas.org        to become the person
http://www.aishdas.org   you might have been.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                      - George Elliot