[Avodah] sun and moon

[Zev Sero]

On 28/08/2011 12:55 AM, Lisa Liel wrote:
> On 8/27/2011 11:02 PM, Zev Sero wrote:
>> On 26/08/2011 5:10 PM, Lisa Liel wrote:
>>> On 8/26/2011 3:42 PM, Zev Sero wrote:

>>>> I don't know. Shabbos is a king, after all.

>>> Pardon? I believe it's Shabbat HaMalka. Not Shabbat HaMelech.

>> That's malka with an alef. King.

> Dear Lord. Where on *earth* did you get that from?

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/i/3130.htm#2


On 28/08/2011 2:50 AM, Micha Berger wrote:
> Obviously, the Yad doesn't contradict a recurring theme in the Moreh.

How about "Obviously the Moreh doesn't contradict the Yad"?  If there is
any difference, then the Yad is primary, so where the Yad is clear why
should I look in the Moreh?


> Your refusal to consult the sources doesn't deminish their evidence,
> just your ability to hold "a high level Torah discussion."

I'm arguing exclusively from the Yad; I don't really care what is written
in some other place.


> What the Rambam says in the Yad is that Hashem causes the motion of the
> spheres -- but indirectly.

That's not what he says.  If it's indirect then what kind of proof is it
that He exists?  If the galgal can move itself then what need has it for
a Mover?  The proof only makes sense if he is saying that the galgal does
*not* move itself, and therefore Someone must be moving it.


> The causal chain of mal'akhim described in
> YhT 2:3-8 is continued at the galgalim and kokhavim in 3:9.

Yes, I don't see how it's relevant.


> It's clear from 3:8 that kokhavim here means stars, not the planets
> and moon.

On the contrary, it reads better if we were somehow to suppose that he
is *excluding* the stars in the eighth galgal!  Then the statement about
nothing being bigger than the sun or smaller than mercury would be
easily understood.  But really that isn't a possible reading; contrary
to your claim that it's "clear" that he's only talking about the eighth
galgal, it's actually clear that he's talking about all the galgalim
and all the kochavim that they contain, without any distinction between
those we call in English "stars" and those we call "planets", "moon",
or "sun".   The language is crystal clear, and there is no possible way
to read it either as you are doing (only the 8th galgal) or as I'd like
to if I could (only galgalim 1-7).


> (3:8 is scientifically wrong about the size of stars in comparison to
> the sun, BTW.)

So the astronomers tell us.  At least if we don't adopt the reading I
suggested above, that he means only the first seven galgalim.  But I
really don't think we can read it that way, so we're left with a
contradiction between the Rambam and the astronomers, which we can each
resolve however we think best.  But we can't distort his words to suit

On 28/08/2011 2:50 AM, Micha Berger wrote:
>>> The spheres, not the moon, planets or stars.

>> >  No.  Look, there is no room for argument, he says it explicitly.  If
>> >  your argument depends on the opposite, then your argumment is utterly
>> >  refuted before it even starts.

> He says the galgalim have intellects, including the galgal of the
> moon. "Kol hakokhavim vegalgalim kulam ba'alei nefesh vede'ah vehaskeil
> heim..." (YhT 3:9) The galgalim are transparent spheres "hamaqifin
> es ha'olam kulo, hein agulin hadur, veha'aretz tzeluyah ba'emtzah"
> (YhT 3:4). That's not the moon, that's a solid object representing the
> orbit of the moon.

Excuse me?  How could you possibly have missed the word "hakochavim"
when you just typed it in yourself?!  *Kol hakochavim vehagalgalim*.
How could it be more explicit?


> What he says explicitly is what I wrote.

No, it is explicitly the opposite of what you wrote.  I am flabbergasted
that you could type in the very words, and then claim they say the exact
opposite of what they say!  Is this some sort of joke?

-- 
Zev Sero        If they use these guns against us once, at that moment
zev at sero.name   the Oslo Accord will be annulled and the IDF will
                 return to all the places that have been given to them.
		                            - Yitzchak Rabin