[Avodah] Non-Jews Begin to Embrace Ketubah Wedding

[Zev Sero]

On 18/02/2011 2:01 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 12:57:36PM -0500, Zev Sero wrote:
>> Whether they see it or not, it is her purpose, and at least those who
>> ask her will know it.  So will everyone else, if she does it as part of
>> the kiddushin ceremony.
>
> RMF says the central problems are:
> 1- Chuqas hagoyim, which may be tied to
> her trying to immitate their rite, and thus to her intent,

On the contrary, *if* it's a real chukas hagoy, which RMF doubts, then
her intention doesn't matter.


> and
> 2- How people who see the wedding might think qiddushin is done. Which
> clearly doesn't.

Of course it does; if she's not trying to do a fake kidushin then there
is by definition no subversion of the laws of kidushin, and thus no
takalah.


> You called someone a liar because he reported what RMF wrote without
> sharing your guess that RMF may have been okay with an exception that
> he didn't discuss

Once again, it is *not an exception*, it's a completely different case.
Every single time he mentions the subject he states clearly what it is:
her attempting to be mekadesh him.  It has nothing to do with the ring.


> if there is an announcement that prevents people
> from mistaking what's going on. That's pretty harsh.

You seem to think RMF is worried about onlookers who have no idea what's
going on.  I don't know where you got such an idea.  This has nothing to
do with onlookers.



> Skipping back in RZS's post:
>>> But continue further, RMF writes that he is afraid people will conclude
>>> wrong ideas about qiddushin from what they see at this wedding. This
>>> kallah's intent or isn't has nothing to do with that cheshash.
>
>> Of course it does.  It's precisely that she is pretending to effect a
>> kiddushin on him that creates the problem...
>
> That's not all RMF says, you stop 1/3 in, before RMF's whole slippery
> slope argument. At this point, I can't add anything I didn't already say.

That *is* all he says.  What does "Avol hocho kesheyargilu shegam hi
titen taba`as *usekadesh*" mean?  What is that word doing there?  Answer
me that.  It's the pretended kidushin that's the problem, and it's the
pretended kidushin that he says we should forbid, lest hilchos kidushin
be subverted.  That is the entire issue, and he doesn't ever suggest
that there's something wrong with giving a ring for some other purpose.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
zev at sero.name                 eventually run out of other people’s money
                                                      - Margaret Thatcher