[Avodah] Non-Jews Begin to Embrace Ketubah Wedding

[Micha Berger]

On Wed, Feb 16, 2011 at 10:33:56PM -0500, Zev Sero wrote:
> On 16/02/2011 11:49 AM, Micha Berger wrote:
>> But that's not payment, that's qinyan sudar. The *iqqar* is the chasan
>> giving it, not the other way around.

> What is a kinyan sudar?  It's consideration for a contract.  A contract
> without consideration is not binding, so if a contract benefits only one
> party, the other party must give something in return....

How does your theory explain qinyan through shtar or meshichah? Or why
onah wouldn't apply for a qinyan sudar? The sudar doesn't have to be
shaveh perutah, which means that your concept of "benefit" here would
have to be different than the usual notion of hana'ah.

For that matter, a ganav can be qoneh too, given yi'ush and shinui.

I personally think it's like meshichah -- simply forcing the qoneh to
do something rather than just say words.

>> That said, among those O rabbis I know who preside over weddings where
>> the man gets a ring, all of my contacts require the ring be given
>> elsewhere.  If her ring is given as part of an exchange, it risks
>> requiring the net value increase for the bride to be shaveh perutah.

> That's only if both rings are given during the kidushin ceremony, or
> could be mistaken as being so given...

I don't know why you think you can tell me what my unnamed LORs hold. But,
I was speaking of mesadrei qiddushin who are chosheshim for such a
mistake if done under the chupah even after qeri'as hakesuvah.

R' Moshe's language is similar, as I noted in my previous post.

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "'When Adar enters, we increase our joy'
micha at aishdas.org         'Joy is nothing but Torah.'
http://www.aishdas.org    'And whoever does more, he is praiseworthy.'"
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