[Avodah] saying kaddish together

[Zev Sero]

Micha Berger wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 07:34:29PM -0500, Zev Sero wrote:
> : Micha Berger wrote:
> : >On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 05:08:37PM -0500, Zev Sero wrote:

>:>: Since when are 9 listeners, or any listeners at all, required for 
>:>: kaddish?  AFAIK they are only required for chazarat hashatz.

>:>... and for a davar shebiqdushah -- including Qaddish, Barekhu,
>:>Qedushah, Barukh Sheim recited out loud YK night, etc...

>: Where is this found?
 
> Megillah 23b

Where on that page?  I can't find it.


> Tur, OCh 55 lists devarim shebiqdushah.

That's not the issue.  The question is where do you get the requirement
for nine listeners, and the Tur says absolutely nothing about that.


> I added Shema on YK night because
> it too is an out lout "barukh sheim kevod malkhuso..."

And therefore?


> Berakhos 47b-48a lists who can be counted

In the minyan.  Again, where are listeners mentioned?


> My thesis, that women aren't counted because they lack the same chiyuv,
> is in Mei'ri Megillah 51

> R' Yaaqov Emdan (Migdal Oz (even bochein 1:69) uses this to distinguish
> dying al qiddush H', for which women are counted.

According to him.   Who else says they are counted?  As I wrote yesterday,
the Pischei Teshuvah raises the possibility that not only are women not
counted for this, but nor are geirim(!) and sends us to YD 2:6 where he
presumably discussed it and gave his answer; unfortunately it seems to
have gone missing.  (As I noted yesterday, this is unlikely to be a typo,
since the term "parhessia" is indeed discussed there.)


> The sources are pretty numerous... RAFrimmer does a better job
> doscumenting this opinion in
> http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/english/tfila/frimer2-1.htm
> sec: "B. The First School."
> The second and third schools are FAR smaller.

How did you arrive at this conclusion?  Just looking at RAF's footnotes
that is not clear at all.  (Since the crucial footnotes refer to multiple
claims in the text, it's not easy to determine who says what without
following each reference; also, e.g., R Yosef Engel appears both in
note 56 *and* note 63.)


-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
zev at sero.name                 eventually run out of other people’s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher