[Avodah] Moshe's name in the haggadah.

[Simon Montagu]

On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 4:55 PM, Micha Berger <micha at aishdas.org> wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 09:42:20PM +0200, Simon Montagu continued our
> exchange:
> : > : Moses' name appears at the end of a pasuk in RYHG's derasha, and the
> : > : derasha is based on the beginning of the pasuk. I have always assumed
> : > : that the original girsa only quoted "Vayar' Yisrael et hayad hagedola"
> : > : and later versions added the rest of the verse. I have no sources, but
> : > : it makes sense to me.
>
> : > I'm not sure we were ever nohagim to read half a pasuq.
>
> : "'Tam ma hu omer? 'Ma zot'"
>
> The din against quoting parts of pesuqim is for more then two words.

Ha! I thought that the tam's two words would be the most slam-dunk
proof that we are not makpid on not quoting partial pesuqim in the
context of the Haggada, but apparently tafasti merube lo tafasti. But
there are other examples, including right there in "RYHG omer" -- the
"etzba`" proof-text is only half a pasuk!

Same goes for Hillel's "Al matzot umerurim yochluhu", the hacham's "ma
ha`edot...", the rasha's "ma ha`avoda hazot lachem" and the answer
"ba`avur ze...", Ben Zoma's "lema`an tizkor..." (and that one starts
after zakef katon, not even atnah)

And looking again at the tam, I realize that the quotation is in fact
not two words: the whole sentence from "ma zot" to "mibeit avadim" is
a verbatim quote of part of a pasuk.

> The question we discussed WRT Fri night Qiddush is why most people do not
> follow this rule. Saying "yom hashisi" would be okay -- 2 words isn't
> a quote. Starting with "Vayar' Elokim es kol asher asah" would be the
> whole pasuq. But whispering "Vayhi erev..." is starting mid-pasuq!

Claiming that "yom hashishi" is 2 words and therefore not a quote is
LAD dohek gadol when we're continuing with the next pasuk. I prefer
RRW's answer (especially since it also works for "al ken..." at
Shabbat morning qiddush)

>
> RRW argued, bringing other examples, that perhaps an esnachta is
> sufficient phrase separation from this rule. And "Vayhi erev" is starting
> Qiddush from the word after an esnachta.