[Avodah] Revenge and Punishment

[Micha Berger]

On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 10:43:48AM -0500, Zev Sero wrote:
:> Since neqama (among Yehudim) is assur

: It's only assur among Yehudim, because we should be forgiving each other.
: But, e.g., a go'el hadam has an obligation to avenge the victim, because
: only the victim himself has the right to forgive.  When it comes to son'ei
: yisrael, all our prayers are full of the call for revenge...
...
: I repeat, "The earth cannot be forgiven for the blood that was spilled
: on it, except by the blood of the spiller."   That is *the* basis for
: capital punishment...

:> It would seem we're asking to rid ourselves
:> of that desire, lo siqom velo sitor, not applaud it.

: You omit "et benei amecha".  That is not an afterthought, it is the most
: important phrase in that pasuk.  We do *not* aspire to rid ourselves of
: the desire for revenge; we are not Xians.  What we do aspire to, is to
: gain such over control that desire that we can turn it off when it comes
: to "benei amecha"....

You are confusing the need for justice with revenge. We say Hashem yiqom
damo and thereby take revenge out of the hands of people who can feel
vengeful and elevate it to HQBH's hanhagah of the universe. "Keil qanah"
no more refers to revenge than Av haRachamim refers to actually feelings
of mercy.

This is why writing VelaMeshumadim, the berakhah that evolved into
VelaMalshinim required Rabban Gamliel to find the one person capable of
writing it.

Notzrut, at least in the set of platitudes you refer to, doesn't
understand that evil can't be forgiven, the world requires it be
destroyed. They therefore have insufficient stomachs for deterrant --
whether it be by teaching future potential criminals or preventing this
particular person from repeating his offense.


All this ties back to your denial (2-1/2 years ago) of the position of a
dozen or so baalei mesorah about Chatzi Hallel on the 7th day of Pesach
and "maasei Yadai tov'im bayam, ve'atem omerim shirah?" You are trying so
hard not to assimilate the surrounding Notzri ethic, you hold one that is
on the other side of that attributed to R' Kahane (Pesiqta deR' Kahane),
the Yalqut Shim'oni, the Shibolei haLeqet (quoting the Medrash Harninu,
whatever that is), R Shelomo Alkabetz, the Beis Yoseif, the Taz, the
Chabos Ya'ir, the Yafeh haLeiv, the Kaf haChaim, the Meshekh Chokhmah,
the Netziv, and R' Aharon Kotler, etc...

The drowning of the Egyptians is an event that all of the above tell us
to face with ambivalence.

(Mar'eh meqomos at
http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2007/07/compassion-for-our-enemies.shtml ,
which summarizes results of a previous Avodah discussion.)

If you could accept that rov acharonim follow maamarei Chazal that call
for us regretting the need for our enemies to die, you wouldn't have
this notion that we want or like revenge. Our simulatenous joy at seeing
justice restores to the world doesn't qualify as vengeful.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A person lives with himself for seventy years,
micha at aishdas.org        and after it is all over, he still does not
http://www.aishdas.org   know himself.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter