[Avodah] Revenge and Punishment

[Zev Sero]

Micha Berger wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 12:54:39AM -0500, R Zev Sero replied on Areivim
> to something I wrote there:
> : >I'm not sure what "justice for the victim" means. Revenge is pointless.
> 
> : On the contrary, it is the only compensation the victim can be given.
> : "The earth cannot be forgiven for the blood that was spilled on it,
> : except by the blood of the spiller."  Executing a murderer restores
> : balance to the world, and gives the victim the revenge she deserves.

> Does someone in olam ha'emes want or need the suffering of the person
> who killed them?

Certainly.  The Torah and Tanach is full of this.  (The biggest proof
is from Navos, but there are many others.)


> Since neqama (among Yehudim) is assur

It's only assur among Yehudim, because we should be forgiving each other.
But, e.g., a go'el hadam has an obligation to avenge the victim, because
only the victim himself has the right to forgive.  When it comes to son'ei
yisrael, all our prayers are full of the call for revenge.  Every time we
refer to a murder victim we say "Hashem Yikom Damo"; do we not mean that?!
The idea that revenge is inherently bad is not a Jewish one; it comes from
the majority religion.


> what would make you think it's a sound basis for penology?

I repeat, "The earth cannot be forgiven for the blood that was spilled
on it, except by the blood of the spiller."   That is *the* basis for
capital punishment.  Letting a murderer live is inherently unjust.
Nations that on principle do not provide justice for murder should be
seen not as more civilised but on the contrary as barbaric.


> It would seem we're asking to rid ourselves
> of that desire, lo siqom velo sitor, not applaud it.

You omit "et benei amecha".  That is not an afterthought, it is the most
important phrase in that pasuk.  We do *not* aspire to rid ourselves of
the desire for revenge; we are not Xians.  What we do aspire to, is to
gain such over control that desire that we can turn it off when it comes
to "benei amecha".

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
zev at sero.name                 eventually run out of other people’s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher